Transcript

What is the future trajectory for Plan ANZAC?

How does a small nation like New Zealand (NZ) contribute to collective security in the Indo-Pacific?

How does NZ’s strategic identity differ from Australia’s?

What should the future social contract between NZ and its Defence Force look like? What does effective leadership and stewardship look like?

In this episode, Sharryn Parker is joined by Major General Rose King, Chief of the New Zealand Army, to discuss how NZ land forces undertakes its role in regional security and what closer cooperation with Australia looks like in practice.

Transcript

(This transcript is AI-generated and may contain inaccuracies.) 

Rose King 

And as a small trading nation, that is so important, because we are so dependent on those global commons, you know, if we cannot get supplies into New Zealand, if we cannot send our supplies off our shores, it makes New Zealand a more difficult place to live in

National Security Podcast

You're listening to the National Security Podcast, the show that brings you expert analysis, insights, and opinion on the national security challenges facing Australia and the Indo-Pacific, produced by the ANU National Security College.

Sharryn Parker 

Welcome to the National Security Podcast. I'm your host Sharryn Parker, a senior policy adviser and defence secondee at the National Security College. Firstly, it is my privilege to acknowledge the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people, who are the traditional custodians of the Canberra land on which we record today. As strategic competition sharpens across the Indo-Pacific, the role of land forces is being redefined, balancing combat readiness with humanitarian response, deepening regional partnerships, and reinforcing resilience in uncertain times are some of the tasks expected of our land combatants. Today, we explore how the New Zealand army contributes not only to its national security, but to the broader stability of our shared region. We'll unpack the enduring significance of the Anzac partnership and consider what closer cooperation looks like in a rapidly evolving strategic environment. And this conversation comes at a defining moment. Earlier today, the New Zealand Chief of Army, Major General Rose King, was part of a historic milestone in our shared ANZAC story. She signed the updated Plan ANZAC alongside the new Australian Chief of Army, Lieutenant General Susan Coyle, the first time this agreement has been signed by two female chiefs of army, Major General King. Welcome to the National Security Podcast.

Rose King 

Hey, thanks, I really appreciate it.

Sharryn Parker 

There's been an understandable focus today on the fact that both Australia and New Zealand chiefs of army are now women, but beyond that headline sits something far more enduring for both of you. You are two leaders shaped by deep experience in command, in decision making, and the weight of institutional responsibility. While history takes a pause, the reality of your command does not. The pressures, the trade-offs, the expectations remain constant. So, let's lean into the core business that you carry. How do you navigate the enduring tension between being ready to fight tonight and preparing your army for the future fight?

Rose King 

Hey, well, thanks for that question. And I think it'd be fair to say that every chief has had that same challenge that we face now too, and it is a difficult one. Right, for me it's very much about how do we, or for myself, how do I ensure that the New Zealand army, with the equipment we have, with the people we have, they're the best lead, the best prepared, and best trained? So, if something happened today, the fight tonight, they will do the best they can, and I have prepared them the best I can to ensure that they can win on operations and also come home from operations, but there is that tension and balance of what do you resource today to enable success in the future and where do you have to take compromise and today to ensure the future or vice versa, so it's a difficult one, but to be honest, I think every single chief around the world has the same, the same challenge in regard to that, so you know, look, both of us use the term command. Do you see yourself as commander or a steward of the institution? Yeah, so for me it's very much about being a kaitiaki, a guardianship, and how do I ensure that this organisation is in a better place than when I received it, and that's that's not to say that my predecessors left it in a bad place, they've really every time we have a chief, they take it to the next level, and very much setting that north star, where are we going to, where do we need to concentrate on, and how do we take the whole organisation forward, so that's fundamental to me.

Sharryn Parker 

So, how then do you lead the institution through change, which is, you know, obvious and quite apparent across, I think, both of our armies, especially in a post-Afghanistan environment, without actually losing its core identity.

Rose King 

Well, it's an interesting thing for me personally, losing the core identity, I don't think is a huge challenge for the land forces. We are always about delivering lethal effects on the land, wherever it is we go, and we are the only institution who has that authority, you know, from our, from our nation, so we must be able to deliver on that. So that purpose to me has never changed. I think for me it's very much around when you get asked to do. Do different deliver different effects for your government, you know, and we can create an example of COVID response to COVID. You take those skill sets that you already have and apply them to whatever that context is that you're working on, but the core purpose of what we do is to deliver a land combat force that can win on operations, that is fundamental and should be front of mind of every single person who serves within the army.

Sharryn Parker 

There's certainly a similar outlook in Australia, and I would offer, though, that for the New Zealand force, you are a small nation, therefore you are a small nation army. Partnerships are really important here. How do you actually generate a national security identity while being so important as a nation within our whole region in the Indo-Pacific, even larger.

Rose King 

Yeah, interesting question. So, can I first just start about the partnership piece that is fundamental, right? And I'm very much an advocate of collective security. The greater good of everyone working together is going to deliver far more better outcomes than us working independently, and it's, you know, as you mentioned, we are a small nation, so it's not lost on me that we don't have the same mass as other armies, but there are other skill sets that we can bring, and where we get the best effect, or best demonstration, or contribution, perhaps, is the better word to global security. Is how do we work collectively? Where are the strengths that we can take and provide? Where can we work with others? How do we influence others? But how do we work collectively? That's the most important thing. And you know, like you mentioned earlier about signing Plan Ans Act this morning, that to me is just a really great example of a really deep relationship that has always been there, but it's just getting deeper and deeper as we work collectively, so that deep relationship, you know, is headed in a particular direction, you know, signing it today is one thing, putting it into practice is the next obvious thing. What's the future trajectory for Plan Anzac. Yeah, I think for me it is deepening what we already do, so it is already delivering. And it was interesting. General Stewart, Simon Stewart, and I were just talking the other day in regard to it's delivered more than we anticipated when it was first signed between him and my predecessor. And so, what is it doing? A whole lot of things we now have collective or shared policy that we use, whether we look at our training standards. How are we interoperable, and ideally we will become interchangeable, and we are in regard to some areas of our training. So, the course qualification you get in New Zealand is the same in Australia, so you can swap your people around. There's no difference in what that is going to be. How do we work collectively in regard to capability acquisition? How do we learn from each other, fast follow? How can we adapt, and where we've one country has learned something, then the other one can learn from that. There are just so many things in that our training mechanism, our systems are now aligned, and we're working collectively with that. Both our teams are across the Tasman frequently, working with each other, so it's delivering every day. I think for me now going forward, it's again, how do you solidify that and how do you deepen that and really leverage off those opportunities of whether it's fast follow adaption and the likes.

Sharryn Parker 

I think sometimes you guys confronted by this idea of scale when you meet, try to meet Australia, you know, at level. I, my experience with New Zealand forces is, you know, they're an exceptional group of people, you know, and very proudly say that, and you know, wouldn't work internationally without them, but the scale piece is always difficult for New Zealand. How do you confront that? Because on the other side of it, Australia faces the very same thing. Yeah, with the US or the UK. Yeah, it's not lost to me that when I'm around the world, I'm talking with my counterparts, no matter how big or small you are, we all have the exact same

Rose King 

challenges or opportunities, as I like to call them. Yeah, so it's the same for all of us. It's just a scale piece in there, but again, I go back to that collective security piece. So, how do we, as a, as different nations, how do we come together to help each other? And that, to me, is where the real power is, the real opportunity to ensure that we still live in a, you know, in a secure world that can, for all of our nations, bring prosperity.

Sharryn Parker 

Yeah, fantastic. I guess, you know, if we're building on the partnership side of the house, it's probably worth stepping back and looking at the broader regional context. Land power in the Indo-Pacific is probably the theme I'm looking for here. How do you see the role of land forces evolving in the Indo-Pacific writ large? And we've just spoken about scale from New Zealand to Australia and Australia to either the US or the UK. If we turn and face the other way, we have got many island nations that. And you know we partner with how does New Zealand do that and consistently provide for those teeny tiny nations.

Rose King 

yeah. Well, they are nations just like us too, right? And the same, they're facing the same challenges. The thing again here for me is, and I spoke about this recently when I was at Land Pack in Hawaii, the the way to build a good relationship or partnership is a relationship, right. So, it's how do you give, how do you take, how do you work collectively, how do you show up for your mates, being there when it matters, and building those relationships. One of the great things that I'm so proud that my predecessors did was enable that training that we do collectively, so whether it's, you know, Pacific Island friends are training in New Zealand, whether we're training with them and their nations, it builds really strong relationships, and what that brings is the ability to be open and transparent and have those hard conversations when you need to, and that's really builds a strength and an understanding when I connect with someone, when I have that shared experience that we have had, I find you can have a better connection of being honest and open about, you know, what this is difficult for us, but if you could do this, it would be really helpful, or vice versa, it might be, you know, we love what you're trying to do, but it's not really helpful, and we experience this ourselves. We actually need assistance here, or we would be help, helpful to work together on this part. Not, not what you.. I guess it's been over kind. Some people are trying to over help, and in fact it's a little bit detrimental. So, it's how do you balance that? The relationships for me in the Pacific are so strong because there is that history, these the connections that we have, people to people, and that brings a real strength.

Sharryn Parker 

Yeah, are there missions then where New Zealand can identify clear lead rather than support throughout the Pacific?

Rose King 

Well, we've had examples of that in the past, right? And I think the key thing here is it's been we need to be prepared to independently operate, but you know, I think it's more realistic that we almost probably do any action or operation collectively with a group, but we still need to be prepared to be able to have our own ability to operate.

Sharryn Parker 

So then, what do Pacific partners expect from the New Zealand army, particularly.

Rose King 

I think honesty, I think that's a really important thing, and the best question of that is to ask them, you know. So don't assume what they want, but what we're hearing in recent times, like we've just recently come from Tonga, it was reinforcement of what we are doing together, and that goes back to what I said before, about forging those relationships, you know, whether it's members, their members attending our officer cadet school, combined training, us exercising in their countries, it's very much what is it that helps them and is a win-win from both of our perspectives. So, can we go to the idea then of strategic identity, you know,

Sharryn Parker 

how you would identify and describe New Zealand's strategic personality within the region, and then how it's actually different from Australia, and whether New Zealand can actually pull the specific core of its identity to support Australia in its engagement with the region.

Rose King 

I think of the strategic identity that depends where you want to look at that. Do you want to look at that from a from a defence lens or from a New Zealand Inc lens? And there'll be similarities about that, but I think if you look back on just New Zealand as a whole, I think people would say we like to be independent, we like to think that we have our own voice, and perhaps an example of that is a nuclear free start is just one example, we would like to think that we have a voice and we're respected and having our own opinions, but with that, I would also like to think that we work collectively, so we can listen to others, we can take on different perspectives, and one of the strengths I think we have as an army, well, in fact, as a defence force, is the ability to connect with people. So, when we go on a mission, on an operation, it's learning about that culture, that how they operate, what works for them, and that way it'll be enduring. So, as opposed to trying to perhaps come in and deliver, you must do it our way.

 

Sharryn Parker 

work out a way that's going to work for that culture and will be embedded and was going to give you enduring peace. That I think is a really important thing for us. Yeah, of course, the Indo-Pacific security environment isn't just shaped by conflict, it is often, or almost as much, probably even more so shaped by crisis that demands immediate response, and that takes us to the H A D R, or the Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Response. New Zealand's pretty hot on this topic, and this capability. Can you describe for us how that actually provides support into the end of. Pacific region,

Rose King 

yeah. Well, again, I think that's a collective response thing, right. And let's face it, I think you right now are going through a few concerns here in Australia, and the same with us. We've got significant flooding at home right now, let alone whether it's volcanic eruptions, flooding, tsunamis within our area. So to me, that's very much how do we support each other, and how do we give readiness? So, one of the big things I think a defence force gives you is the ability to react quickly with command and control to take a complex problem, make that simplified, and actually operationalize an effect. So, whether that's getting food or water to people, whether it's opening up ports, and the likes, we have that ability, but I'd also say that's not actually our key output. We are here again because we are an army to be able to deliver effects, operational kinetic effects, and lethal effects when required on operations. So it's almost like an insurance policy that the government, whether they choose to use it or not, because of that skill set we have, you can utilise it in H A D R, but that's not our raison d'être.

Sharryn Parker 

Yeah, it's an expensive insurance policy, and I think that probably is where the conversation needs to go. Certainly, yeah, certainly on the Australian front, having that balance and knowing and trusting, while we have got great institutional trust across Australia, I'm sure it's the same in New Zealand, but ensuring that our brothers and sisters in arms also trusted to actually get on with the job of fire and rescue, flood and rescue, and in New Zealand's case, you know, many, many other types of, you know, hazards that you must face, but that there is institutional trust in those organisations as well.

Rose King 

I agree, and I think what you said before about, you know, it's an expensive insurance policy, it is indeed, and I really echo that, and I guess the reason I say that is when you're utilising a resource for the likes of H A D R, and it's, and I can understand why you would, but there's a balance there, right, of what does that mean to your operational readiness, and if a crisis in another form was to occur, how can you then respond to that quickly and appropriately as well.

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Sharryn Parker 

Can I turn now to a bit of a discussion around how the New Zealand army actually prepares for the future, putting aside scale, the idea of technology is fundamental and foremost, I think, to both armies. There are many emerging technologies, but what do you think are most likely out of the technological realm to actually reshape land operations as you see it?

Rose King 

Good question. I think it's hard to predict the future. That's the first thing I'd say, but impossible tasks. Yes, but if you look at, if you look at things that are happening, whether it's in the Ukraine, in the Middle East, I think you can take some lessons from that in regard to adaptation. And to be honest, I think this is one of the things in the land space that we need to adapt faster, I would argue, than perhaps the other two services, not in regard to mindset, but capability, like to buy a frigate, you know, that a frigate is not going to change in three months, the capability, or how a drone could be used, can, so there is a need for the army to be very adaptable, be able to fast follow and to experiment with those key technological changes that are happening. Yeah, and then how do you exploit that? And you need to do that at a faster way than your adversary. That to me is key.

Sharryn Parker 

Yeah, you've used the term fast follow a number of times. I quite like it. You know, it's accepting someone else has come up with this idea. Yeah, we're now leaning into it.

Rose King 

Yes. Thanks

Sharryn Parker 

very much. We'll take that, put it on the chessboard.

Rose King 

Yeah, I think there's been.. I think most Kiwis, you may have heard about the number eight wire approach, so you don't have much money, but you know, piece of wire will be able to fix all sorts of different things, right? And sometimes we may have decided that we'll just.. we'll just change something a little bit, yeah. And I.. and to make it perfect, and I would argue, right now, you don't need 100% solution. You're better to have an 80% solution that is proven and that you can adjust or replace and change quicker than trying to get the perfect solution that's going to be too late. That's why I talk about fast follow, and how can we learn from others? How can we learn from if you. Already gone through the procurement process, and it's proven. Why would we go through a long procurement process when it's already proven? Yeah, that to me is the how do we adapt quicker? How do we introduce capabilities faster, and then be able to deliver effects better?

Sharryn Parker 

Does the New Zealand army, or the New Zealand Defence Force, writ large, does it have a workforce tension there?

Rose King 

So, I think there's a couple of opportunities in that space. Yeah, so the first one I would say is our capability management framework is world class, and it's, but it's designed for large platforms, and for an army who needs less large platforms, but equipment and technology that's changing quicker. We need to be more adaptable and faster in how we go through that process, and I think there's an ability there to look at risk, like depending on the scale of money that you're spending. What's the actual risk in regard to the procurement process? Now that obviously has to lean into your country's process in regard to equitable opportunities for people to put in bids, you know, to provide equipment and the likes, but I think there's an opportunity right now just to review some of those tensions and are they actually at the right level. So that's something I think is quite important, because otherwise you're going to miss opportunities.

Sharryn Parker 

What are some of the hardest trade-offs then you would make?

Rose King 

So I think that's the time thing proven, so 100% versus a proven thing that you can get on time and can deliver. And I think the other thing, you know, when you're a smaller organisation, you don't have the same mass, perhaps, as others, is that balance between exquisite versus mass. So you know, I don't want to give you an example, because people will then quote me, go, 'Oh, she said we're not gonna, you know, buy that capability, but if you look at some of the exquisite munitions that we have, and I guess effects hugely expensive, and when you're a smaller nation, are you better to have one of those that is vulnerable in regard that there is only one platform and highly targetable? Exactly, that's what I mean, like, just as so many ways that you can make that neutralise it, right? All sorts of ways versus mass, so cheap but large numbers, which are harder to defend against.

Sharryn Parker 

You know, I would agree. We spend a lot of time on this podcast and across the National Security College, particularly talking about AUKUS and what Pillar One particularly means. Pillar one, of course, is the submarine. It is an exquisite piece of equipment. We've seen the UK and its powerless circumstance with its submarines, but we are still leaning in and going forward for it, because we believe in credible force, and with our situation geographically being slightly different to yours. Yes, it is a necessary part of our future that doesn't make it any less expensive, but it does mean that there is a very necessary preparedness, you know, and mobilisation conversation that needs to occur with the Australian people. Do you watch the Australian conversations occurring in this space, and feel relief that it's not your conversation, or do you actually feel alignment that that these are actually very similar things when it comes to the exquisite and the expensive versus the off the shelf and the highly available?

Rose King 

Yeah, I think for me it goes back to what I mentioned before about every chief that I speak to, every country, no matter their context, no matter their geographic location or mass, we all have the same tensions, and I would also argue that, you know, politically, especially very similar to, you know, we would all love to be, have more investment in defence, just as we would all love, I'm sure, to have more investment in our health systems and roadine and the likes, but when there's a certain amount of money, you've got to make some hard decisions. So, this to me is, how do you balance that? If there was an easy answer, someone would have given us that, so that's that constant challenge we have, and then being able to anticipate what we think maybe changes in the future versus as we said before, you don't actually know what's going to happen in the future. Yeah, so it is a hard, it's a hard thing to do, and you know, I don't have a this is what you must follow. There's no silver bullet, but I guess it's just working through the risks of each of those, and then working out what's the what in that point in time, what we think's the right option to go with,

Sharryn Parker 

yeah, yeah, taking every day as it comes, completely.

Rose King 

And I think the other thing with that too, as I'd say, and I'm certainly trying to take that in my tenure, is it's okay if we don't get things right all the time. And I think we're very fortunate in New Zealand because we are of a smaller scale, we have the ability to test and adjust, perhaps more rapidly than some larger organisations, so that gives us some flexibility in that space too.

Sharryn Parker 

I think that's one of the biggest differences. Then I would offer the Australian perspective is that we certainly do feel that we need to get it right, and we need to get it right first time. That's probably some of the. Difficulty that you know Australia is grappling with, with regard to AUKUS pillar one, particularly. I think AUKUS pillar two is almost a proven entity, and we need more of that across the, you know, the five nations community that we have with the US, the UK, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, but I guess this then takes us back to where we started in this conversation, and the Anzac legacy, which is now over 100 years old, and the social contract, and how it plays out in Australia. Can you give me a bit of an idea of how it might be different, or indeed the same, in New Zealand.

Rose King 

Yeah, so I do think there is subtle differences. So, the first thing I would say is that still is a fundamental part of who both our nations are, I think. And you know, even if I think in the last, gosh, three decades, over three decades that I've served, the difference I'm seeing in regard to attendance at Anzac Day commemorations, and seeing more young people come and people sharing stories, even about our contemporary veterans, as well, which I think is fantastic, that people are learning. I do think there is a difference, you know. You mentioned before different geographic locations, we have different.. there are a whole lot of things that are similar, but there's also some differences in regard to where we are. So, most Kiwis, I would suggest, perhaps, and I think this is a good thing, they're naive, perhaps, in regard to the security challenges that we face, and so you know, in Australia, I've lived here for a couple of years while serving, and generally was really well received if I was in uniform, that's not necessarily the case in New Zealand, and I'm not saying that you would be received poorly, but you're not going to have someone say, "Thank you for your service, as an example. So, there's a different context there, and I do wonder with our Kiwis whether they're kind of like, "Do we really need a defence force? And I think there's opportunity for us in New Zealand to continue with that narrative of people understanding why we do so, yeah, I do think it is a little bit different in regard to that.

Sharryn Parker 

I think the thank you for your service piece is actually quite a new concept, certainly in Australia, and I think there are a lot of military veterans in Australia and currently serving personnel who are still very uncomfortable with it. It feels a little bit American, which you know we both worked with the American psyche, and how it actually, you know, delivers for its military personnel is very open and very forward, but it certainly makes Australians shift uncomfortably in their seats, more so becoming more accepting of it, because it's actually a conversation starter, and the thing that is made apparent to me every time I go out in public in uniform is that people gravitate to their army, maybe an air force, and they just want to have that conversation, so there's a nugget of value in it,

Rose King 

yeah,

Sharryn Parker 

that, that certainly makes sense to me, and I'm still working through it, you know, mentally to make my peace with it, and, and certainly more to follow there, you know, the future social contract, though. What do you think that needs to look like for New Zealand in 10 to 20 years,

Rose King 

I think. Well, there's a.. I think there's a number of different things in that space. It's, you know, sometimes I talk to people offshore and they're like, "Oh, you know, New Zealand, what it's at Linus, and I'm kind of proud in some ways that there is a naivety with a lot of Kiwis about the risk that we face, security risks, because you know, at the bottom of the earth, you know, we've got a lovely big moat, we're safe, and as both you and I know, that that's just not, not quite true on many different levels, and the likes. So I do think there is an opportunity in regard to the maturing of the understanding of people, but not being alarmist, either. To me, there's a balance, balance there, but also understanding the value that the Defence Force brings to a nation. You know, we don't just fight wars, that is, you know, we are not about warmongering. I do find it interesting when people say, "Oh, you just love war on it's like no success for me is peace. It is enabling success, prosperity within our region and globally. And as a small trading nation, that is so important because we are so dependent on those global commons. You know, if we cannot get supplies into New Zealand, if we cannot send our supplies off our shores, it makes New Zealand a more difficult place to live in, so I do think we should be having a conversation in that space, and just letting people understand just the realities of the world that we live in. Yeah, it's great. Look, can I ask you, perhaps you know, leading into our final segment, I suppose you know what does. Success, look like for the New Zealand army the moment you actually finish your tenure. What, what do you want to achieve? Well,

Sharryn Parker 

what about what about your legacy? What does that? I was

Rose King 

wondering if you're going to ask me this about legacy, and I'll be honest with you, I've personally, for me, it's not about my legacy, it's not about me. It goes back to what I said before about stewardship. How do I ensure that this organisation, that is an amazing organisation, has given so much to me, not only as an individual, but just collectively. I think of what we do for New Zealand. How do I put that in a place? Whoever comes after me and whoever comes after them is set up for success. That to me is what's really important, and I think there's a piece in there about making some of those hard decisions, because a decision on time is better than a, even if it's an 80% and trust me, I do like success, is better than 100% too late. So, how can I set us up both for the vision of where we're trying to get to, but to enable the person who comes after me to be able to take it, take it even further forward,

 

Sharryn Parker 

and your signing of Plan Anzac, you know, only this morning with General Susan Coyle, you know, will certainly take us in that direction. What does it look like for the next 12 months? And Plan Anzac

 

Rose King 

again, it's just a deepening of what we're doing, it's the alignment of our force development, force generation. How do we work collectively in that space, there's a real opportunity, I think, in regard to the how we share what we're doing, so we're not overlapping. I call it the gaps surfaces, so we surfaces engage completely, like where are we overlooking this? Yeah, exactly, and where are the things that we can actually do better together, and really looking forward to that. It's, it's really proving its worth, and for me the next three years is almost solidifying what that is, and then taking it to the next step. Yeah,

 

Sharryn Parker 

can I just lean in on a.. I think to wrap this up, you know, while I was actually doing research for this conversation, because, of course I don't want to get any of this wrong, you know. I saw an interview by the then Corporal Willie Apriata, and you know, he was promoted in 2024 to Regimental Sergeant Major. One of the things he actually spoke about in that interview, which I think is a beautiful and telling end to this conversation, is that he, he referenced mana, and you know, I thought, what is this mana you speak of? And it is the foundational Maori concept that refers to spiritual power, prestige, authority, and inner strength, and he mentioned that when he originally won his BC in, I believe, 2007 Certainly, in the Afghanistan campaign, he wasn't ready for the onslaught of attention and that he received, and he left the army at that time because of that, but he has since come back and delivered for the New Zealand army a concept around being ready and having the inner strength. Now, for me, it's not just about this one individual who has obviously done something incredibly exceptional. It actually leans toward the New Zealand mindset and having that inner strength and being able to coordinate, being able to have a conversation with the rest of the nation about how you feel, what you see. Can you give us a lasting legacy statement? I suppose around, you know, who you are as a person, what your army is, and what New Zealand's intentions are for, for the Indo-Pacific, and what you would like to see.

 

Rose King 

There's a lot on that question. It is a lot. Yes, it is. So, perhaps if I start with the first one, for me it's very important that I am true to who I am, that you, what you see is what you get. Our ethos and values are so important to me, in particular, around integrity, so that is fundamental for me, and therefore my actions must follow what I say, and vice versa. That's really important as an individual, and those ethos and values that, so that's actually a little bit around Rose, who she is, and and what motivates me. I think you spoke about the our organisation, and what that is, it's, you know, an adaptable combat-capable lethal force that can win on operations. That's exactly what we're, we're about. And then I've forgotten your third one. Sorry, there was something else to say there.

Sharryn Parker 

You know, I think message for the future. What does the pathway look like for New Zealand?

Rose King 

I just think there's so many opportunities in that pathway. There really is. And the one thing that you know people say, why do you come to work, why do you keep serving? That's the people we have, such amazing people in our organisation, and every day they're knocking it out of the park, and they are really delivering, both in New Zealand, but globally, you know, we are persistently delivering across the globe 24/7 whether it's in Africa. Whether it's in the Middle East, whether it's in Korea, within the Pacific, we're there, and that to me is really important when we think about collective security, the trust and the ability to understand and to influence, that's fundamental,

Sharryn Parker 

fantastic. I think the message we're actually going to take away from that is purpose. What is your purpose? What is our purpose, and, and what do we leave, you know, in the longer term for our children. Yeah, it's a wonderful message. It's a very positive message. Congratulations on signing Plan Anzac today. Thanks, and marking that historical moment with, with Lieutenant General Susan Coyle, Major General Rose King. Thank you for joining the National Security Podcast today.

Rose King 

Well, thank you. I really appreciate the time with you.

National Security Podcast 

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