Transcript

How should Australia strengthen engagement with Africa?

How do perceptions of Africa influence Australia’s approach to bilateral and regional partnerships, and what opportunities might we be overlooking?

How do African nations view China? And how does China shape the dynamics of African geopolitics? 

In this episode, Babatunde Obamamoye, Matthew Neuhaus and Lisa Filipetto join David Andrews and Melissa Permezel to discuss opportunities and barriers to Africa–Australia relations and the role of perception in engagement.

(This transcript is partly AI-generated and may contain inaccuracies.)

National Security Podcast

You're listening to the National Security Podcast, the show that brings you expert analysis, insights and opinion on the national security challenges facing Australia and the Indo-Pacific. Produced by the ANU National Security College.

David Andrews

Welcome to the National Security Podcast. I’m David Andrews, Senior Policy Advisor at the ANU National Security College. I'm hosting today's episode alongside my colleague, Dr Melissa Permezel, who is an advisor at the NSC's Futures Hub and convener of the NSC's Africa Working Group. Today's podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people, and we pay our respects to their elders past and present. Today, Melissa and I are joined by Lisa Filippetto, Matthew Neuhaus, and Babatunde Obamamoye for a discussion on why Africa matters for Australia, our national security and interests, both now and into the future.

To briefly introduce our guests, Lisa Filippetto AM, was previously United Nations Assistant Secretary General, leading the UN's Peace Operations Support Mission in Somalia from 2018 to 2023, and a diplomat with the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade for 33 years. In that time, Lisa served as High Commissioner to Kenya, Rwanda, Tanzania and Uganda, as Ambassador to Burundi, Djibouti, Eritrea and Ethiopia, and as Australia's representative to the African Union. Lisa was also appointed as a member of the Order of Australia in 2019 for services to bilateral relations and international humanitarian issues. Matthew Neuhaus was appointed an honorary Professor of international law at the ANU College of Law in 2022, and he previously held senior positions in the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and Premier and Cabinet, including as Australian Ambassador to the Netherlands, Ambassador to Zimbabwe and High Commissioner to Nigeria, and Director of the Political Affairs Division of the Commonwealth Secretariat in London from 2002 to 2008. Dr. Babatunde Obamamoye is a sessional lecturer in the Department of International Relations at the Australian National University, where he completed his PhD and was previously a faculty member at the Obafemi Awololo University in Nigeria. His research interests include peace interventions, peace building, and local reception of international peace missions. Lisa, Matthew and Babatunde, welcome to the National Security Podcast.

Thank you. Thank you.

David Andrews

A key motivating factor for this conversation is the acknowledgement that while Australia has played an active role in Africa for many years, and it's a part of the world that's connected to our broader national security and national interests, it's also one that often doesn't receive the attention it deserves in contemporary policy conversations. And so this is also the motivating factor for standing up the NSC's Africa Working Group, which you convene, Melissa, and it's clear from the feedback that you've received through the Working Group that Australia needs to strengthen its engagement with and its knowledge of Africa.

Melissa Permezel

Yes, that's right, David, and good to be here. So this year, the NSC took a bit of a leap and decided that it really should focus its efforts on Africa, that this part of the world is connected to our broader national security and national interests. But as you just said, it's not often part of those conversations. So we convened a broad group of senior diplomats, academics, but also private sector representatives from the mining industry to discuss the future of Australian African relations and what that means for national security and interests. We've also held some conversations with diaspora as part of the Perth Africa Down Under Week. And basically the feedback is that Africa does and should matter more to Australia strategically. And really a sense that, when you look at some of the facts and figures around Africa, it's really critical that we look at things differently in that part of the world. It's a huge landmass. All of the US, China and Europe actually fit into Africa. It's got 54 countries of enormous cultural and national diversity, over 3000 languages. It's going to house a significant proportion of the world's population, a huge number of dynamic young people, 35% of the world's global youth who are also, might I add, known to be very entrepreneurial. So there's an enormous human capital element there. It holds 30 % of the world's critical minerals. And when, David, finally, we think about Australia's current engagement with Africa, it's quite significant. There are over 170 ASX listed companies operating in 35 countries across the continent. There's around $60 billion plus private sector investment, largely mining investment there. There's over 250 million plus private citizen donations given, and we've got nine formal diplomatic posts. Now, if you consider that alongside the informal familial ties that are there with the growing rise in Australia's Africa diaspora and our continuing education, agriculture and sporting ties that connect the two countries. There's a lot that we have in common and need to build on.

David Andrews

Thanks so much for that overview, Melissa. I think that really sets the tone very effectively for our conversation and gives our listeners a great sense of just why Africa is so important to Australia and to the world in the years to come. clearly there's a significant presence and interest for Australia. But I think the question that I want to start with is that one of why should we proactively turn our attention as a policy community to Africa? So what do we need to recognise about Africa from the perspective of Australia's national interests and security? Lisa, I might start with you and also note that you're dialling in from Africa as we speak. Maybe tell us a little bit about where you are and how that's connected to what we're talking about today as well.

Lisa Filippetto

Well, thank you very much, David. It's good to be here with other presenters. I'm dialling in from a town called Bondo in Kenya. It's a rural town, the centre of some commercial activity, local markets. I'm here building a house which will enable my husband, Inyan, to be an elder in his community. So it's an interesting time for us. But I've been in Africa since 2007, living and working and working for 12 years. And in that time, I've visited a cross section of countries and in different states of development, in different states of economic potential. And so I think what I'd like to say today is that the Africa of today is really unrecognizable from the image that many Australians retain of it as poor and needing the assistance of others to survive. I think that's a very unfortunate narrative that has taken root in Australia. I was in Australia recently chatting to friends and asking, you know, what is your image of Africa? And I think it's been a little bit, you know, affected by some of the advertisements people see on TV requesting assistance for Africans. So the key thing is that Africa is on the move economically, politically, and also in the pursuit of peace. And in major cities around Africa, such as Nairobi, the skyline is dominated by skyscrapers, there are above ground expressways, there are banks, there are hospitals, there are all the facilities and services that you would expect of, you know, in any major economy. It's connected and powered by incredible IT networks. We have some of the most advanced IT networks in the world, I would say. Economies run on telephones. You can send money in Kenya from any telephone to anybody in Kenya and also around the world. So it's very sophisticated. And I think that level of economic sophistication is not always well appreciated. And the youth of Africa are making political demands for a brighter economic future. So, you know, young people are active. They want a better life and they want to be part of that global community. There are no longer any cross-border wars in Africa. So that image of, you know, these consistent wars and battles, there are civil strife, including from terrorist activity. And geopolitically, Africa is of vital interest and concern to many powers around the world who are busy working economically, but also politically and networking to ensure that their future is brighter if they are in tandem with Africa and notably China. I'm sure others will speak to that. Australia's prosperity and security has been built through international connections over centuries. We've traded in minerals, in agriculture, in services and generations of Australians, multicultural as they are, have been outward facing all these years, whether in peace or in war. And in the past, we have pivoted to understand and embrace the opportunities of emerging economies such as China and those in Southeast Asia. Our businesses were early movers into these economies, for example, into Vietnam. People-to-people links, investments and tourism has followed. So I find it is odd that we retain a blind spot to similar opportunities in Africa. Our mining companies have seen those opportunities and are investing in Africa. But as a sort of population, I think it remains a blind spot. So it's time the rest of us caught up, you know, with the mining companies and with others who are working in Africa. I think that we're disconnected from Africa at our peril and at the peril of future generations. So let's catch up. Thank you.

David Andrews

Thanks very much, Lisa. And Matthew, in a similar vein, you've recently published a piece with the Lowy Institute's interpreter blog that talks about how Australia needs to move from talking to action when it comes to Africa, what one might call Australia's Indo-Pacific blind spot being in the Western Indian Ocean and in Africa. So where, from your perspective, are we falling short in that relationship?

Matthew

Well, thanks for that. And yes, my focus is that we should put the Indo into the Indo-Pacific narrative. That means the Indian Ocean Rim, of which Africa is a very important part, as well as the island states which are African, such as Mauritius and Seychelles and so on. And I think we need to recognise that our security is affected by what happens in the Indian Ocean, just as it is in the Pacific. The Indian Ocean is a place of great rivalry as well. And that is one that we need to take rather more seriously. And once we get to the African side of the Indian Ocean, we also have to be conscious of the hinterland of African nations too. Whereas as been pointed out by Melissa, we have significant economic interests already with our mining companies and service companies to other mining companies. It's quite an industry there, as well as people to people links. I guess another thing that I'm concerned is that we should make sure that we're properly represented across the continent. I mean, to have nine posts amongst 54 countries is pretty low, given the extent of our interests and the countries we're engaging with in Africa and need to engage with more. And we could do more with honorary consuls. Getting back to my Lowy piece though, I was saying we need to some initiatives for engagement. I've just been in Ghana actually with the Commonwealth Observer Group observing what was a very good election where the opposition took government peacefully and the government candidate conceded gracefully and rather early, rather better than some elections we see in Western countries, have to say, in terms of the sophistication that is now developing in Africa. And Ghana is a country where we have substantial mining interests as well. Beyond that, and we may get to this a bit more, Africa is very important multilaterally and we will not achieve our multilateral objectives, not just the Security Council candidacy, but other initiatives without African support. So we need to build that relationship. To end on a positive note, I was delighted that shortly after writing that article, Australia did come up with an initiative for agricultural research and development, particularly focused on climate change impact, a $79 million initiative. And I think we need other initiatives like that, and we need more engagement at the highest levels with Africa to add substantially to our knowledge as well as our commitment.

David Andrews

Babatunde, you were born and raised in Nigeria. You've now spent a number of years living in Australia. Do these sort of conversations, do they resonate with you and your experience? from your time here and, and of course from your time living and working in Africa, why should Africa matter more to Australia from your perspective?

Babatunde Obamamoye

Yeah. Thank you David, and Melissa for having me. And of course, for giving me a very unique opportunity to participate in this conversation. Just to support some of the point that I've been made, I believe very strongly that there are so many reasons as to why Australia at this moment, we really need to turn to Africa, especially within the context of Australia's national security interest. Maybe perhaps I could just identify two key reasons in addition to what have been highlighted. And I think one of the key reasons why Africa at the moment matters to Australia has to do with the need to reinfigure Australia's multilateral relevance on the global stage. For instance, in 2021, Australia will be running for a non-permanent seat of the United Nations Security Council. As a matter of fact, for this contest to be a success, Australia needs a lot of support from Africa, I mean, from different countries across different parts of Africa. And obviously, for instance, the last experience, was when the last time when Australia contested for this position, that was in 2012, it would not have been a success without the support of this African nation. So basically, if we are thinking, I mean, now at this moment from an Australian perspective, we're thinking about the need to reinvigorate the multilateral relevance of Australia on the global stage, I think we really need to turn to many African countries. And then another reason why I believe that we need to turn to Africa has to do with the issue of trade diversification. One of the key lessons I believe we learned from the recent, I can't tell, the three tensions between Australia and China has to do with this issue of the need for Australia to diversify its export markets. Just last year in 2023, for instance, Australia's export to Africa were over $1.5 billion. So I believe very strongly that the relationship that could be expanded, especially when this is in the interest of Australia. And then, by the way, by 2050, it's been projected that Africa will host about 25 % of the world population. Of course, you know what population, what it means for economy of different, of different nations across the world. So basically two reasons. One, if you're thinking about multilateral relevance, we need to turn to Africa. And then if you also want to maximize this idea of trade diversification, Australia, need to turn to Africa at this moment.

David Andrews

I think there's a really interesting connection between your comments and Matthew's in terms of that, our representation in Africa from bilateral perspective, but also from multilateral perspective, and indeed the Commonwealth, Matthew. if I am saying correctly, that's who you've been with in this observer mission in Ghana, and of course, your previous experience there, and a huge number of Commonwealth countries are in Africa. And it's maybe an underutilised or not well understood aspect of Australia's multilateral foreign policy. I think Lisa, you raised this as well as this, the role of rare earths and critical minerals and economic wealth in our mining industry. And this is something that we've talked about on the podcast before is the key role played by rare earth and critical minerals in the years to come. so there's clearly an enormous economic connection, like you say, Babatunde, there's as much potential there between Australia and Africa that I think there's a lot we can explore. hopefully this is just a taste of if you want to go away and think about what some options might be. But another aspect that you might say bringing it closer to home is also the demographic one, right? And like you said, there's a lot of young people in Africa, but also in Australia, there's an increasingly large diaspora population that's part of Australia now. And so we're maybe more used to dealing with parts of Asia or the Pacific, but actually as that population grows, it has to change how Australia thinks about the world and how we engage with the world. So I think that's a really… together we've obviously identified a lot of really critical parts for us to think through. But I'll hand over to Alyssa at this point for our next phase of the conversation.

Melissa Permezel

Yes, thanks. Thanks, David. So we have covered some of those positives and those opportunities. There are also challenges as we're aware. And Lisa, you pointed out that the beginning that we, that there are challenges, but there are opportunities. Let's talk a little bit though about some of those challenges. For example, governance is an issue that many people often raise, rightly or wrongly, in terms of how countries achieve their potential. What do these governance challenges mean for Australia and how we might engage? How do we need to consider those in terms of this strengthening of Australia-Africa relations? Matthew, I might start with you and then go to Lisa and Babatunde.

Matthew Neuhaus

Well, thanks, Melissa. And I'm very grateful to David for mentioning the Commonwealth because I do think it's often underrated. And yes, I was there with the Commonwealth Observer Group. And one of the striking things about Commonwealth African countries is that is where democracy has best developed. Surrounding Ghana, which I just mentioned, are three francophone countries which have had military coups in the last couple of years. And that's one of the challenges that's still out there in governance, indeed. There is still a disproportionate role played by the military in so many countries in Africa, whether in Mali or Burkina Faso or Sudan, and so on. I think it's African countries themselves, though, that starting to deal with these issues. And we can encourage that. It's the African Union or the ICOWAS West African organization that will suspend members when there are military coups in order to put pressure for change. And I think what I would like to emphasise in addressing some of those challenges, which include terrorism and crime and so forth, is that it's in our interest to develop partnerships with African governments and African organisations to help them with those challenges because they will benefit our own people who are working out there. And they will also, I think, help to stabilise the situation in which we need to encourage the education in Africa. I'm part of the Australia African Universities Network, as many know, and we're doing a lot of engagement. And this is in our self-interest at the end of the day, because as David's rightly pointed out, with this demographic sort of impact that Africa is increasingly having on the world, it's having it on Australia. And we have more and more Africans coming here to work, skilled Africans, with good standards of education and that benefits us and in a way it can benefit Africa too by the remittances, the support that they send back into Africa. So there's increasing mutual interest in this exchange and I think that's what we need to emphasise this partnership that we can have with Africa to address the challenges.

Melissa Permezel

Thanks Matthew. Lisa, did you want to come in there and talk about some of the challenges from your perspective or how you'd like to those challenges that are often looked at in terms of Africa?

Lisa Filippetto

Yes, thanks Melissa and thanks to Matthew. I think going back to the narrative and the image, Africa is not a country. There are 54 countries in Africa and they have differing models of governance, of government and different capacities. Democracy is the favoured form of government. The 66 % of those surveyed in Africa, from different surveys, from 2020 onwards 17 African governments changed hands and Matthew was witness to that in Ghana. And in 2024 alone, 17 countries have had presidential or parliamentary elections. So to me, it seems as if on the issue of governance, the countries of Africa are often held to a higher standard than countries elsewhere. Because good governance is an interplay of so many institutional capacities and getting that right, challenges everybody globally. Australia has never made good governance a condition of working with many countries around the world. Although obviously there is a preference to working with our countries with good governance, but it's not a condition of working. It's not a sort of limiting factor. But all of that said, the overall trend in Africa is towards better governance, notwithstanding, I think, the six coups that have happened recently. And some countries are improving faster than others, which is a global issue as well. There are various indices on governance, such as the Ibrahim Index of African Governance that can shed more light on this. And we should and can work well with countries that perform in these indices, but we should not exclude other countries. Australian companies have invested very successfully in many countries in Africa. And you know, Australia has extraterritorial laws banning corrupt activities. So our companies have managed to work within that framework as well as within the frameworks of the countries where they're based. So the existing footprint that we have in Africa demonstrates that we can engage effectively in African countries, providing we have that commitment, that respect and the long-term view. So, we shouldn't be timid about enhancing the scope of our engagement in African countries. We need to do more on security engagement. Matthew's referenced the Indo, putting Indo back into the Indo-Pacific. We need to do much, much more on diplomacy. And I think people-to-people links can never be underestimated as a driver. We have the diaspora, but we have important diaspora in Australia. But we'll also need more Australians to visit. So we should be focusing on partnerships of mutual benefit with those countries interested in what Australia has to offer. And there are many countries, not just the Commonwealth countries are substantial supporters, cheerleaders of Australia, would say in many cases, but other countries are also interested. And at the end of the day, we shouldn't assume that Africa needs to be taught about good governance. It's something that they will develop and, and it will flourish in its own time.

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Melissa Permezel

Thanks Lisa. Babatunde, what's your view here on the challenges as someone that's spent, you're growing up in in a cosmopolitan Nigerian nation, spent some time in Australia and can see some of the perceptions that get carried on about what Africa looks like. What do we need to understand about some of those challenges and how do we strengthen our engagement even with them there?

Babatunde Obamamoye

Thank you Lisa. Are there challenges regarding their potential challenges regarding the need for Australia to strengthen its relationship with Africa or many African countries? Yeah, I think the answer is yes. I think from my perspective, one of the key challenges that I envisage in this case has to do with the point that was made by Lisa as to the nature of Africa itself. Unfortunately, when you talk to some policymakers, they tend to consider Africa as a country. Africa isn't a country. This is a continent with about 54 countries. Therefore relating with Africa, you understand what it means. You're not just relating with one country, but then you are relating with different countries, with different interests, different needs, and so many other things. So I think in this case, the major challenge will be how the interest and capacity of these countries to engage with Australia vary from one country to another, and also from one administration to the other. So in that case, we are thinking about solving this problem. I think Australia will need to kind of developing multiple approaches in its effort to revive its relationship with Africa. In this case, the approach that work, an approach that works for one country may not necessarily work for the other country. Therefore, we have so many policy choices and then see how to engage more proactively with issues of these countries are depending on their needs.

Melissa Permezel

Yes, I think that's a really important point. And we framed this podcast, haven't we David, around Africa, really being conscious that, of course, there is that diversity there and it's really up to us to do a bit more to understand that. I'm going to hand back to you now, David.

David Andrews

Thanks, Melissa. And I think that's right. And it's probably the fact that we're having this conversation and stressing that point is probably indicative in some ways of the maturity of the conversation in Australia about geopolitics and national politics within Africa is that there's still this urge to talk about Africa in this sort of one generic continental way that melds a lot of those distinctive identities and cultures into one giant African notion when actually, as we're stressing, that it's like saying, well, countries from Kazakhstan to Cambodia to Japan are all the same, right? Asia isn't one thing, it's a continent which contains a multitude of countries with, with unique geographies and histories and cultures. And I think that is something we should probably reflect on in the Australian context that this can be such an easy framing to generate when actually that suggests we need to do a lot more to unpack that and to understand each of these different aspects of Africa more, more deeply. One thing that we didn't get into in great detail, but I think is probably unavoidable for us to discuss in some respect is the relationship between China and countries in Africa. And, and I think we've made it very clear so far that Australia's engagement with African countries is not purely on the basis of grand strategic compacts or concerns about things like that. There are, there are personal, cultural, economic, diverse ties that are more about Australia's unique interests. But at the same time, there is, think, a consciousness or an awareness in the Australian strategic community that whether it's about trying to control critical mineral supplies or influence politics or through telecommunications and things that China and indeed Russia, Turkey, were even seeing Ukrainian and Russian special forces fighting each other in Africa. France and Britain have had long running sort of deployments there into whether it's the Sahel or elsewhere. But to sort of focus, I guess, that, maybe more on the China dimension, how much do you think that is sort of shaping the dynamics of African countries and African geopolitics moving forward? Is that going to be a dominant trend or something that gets a bit overblown in the Western context? Perhaps I could start with you, Babatunde, this time around.

Babatunde Obamamoye

Yeah, if I get your question very well, I think... I think this was one of the reasons I was thinking. I previously identified two major reasons as to why Australia at this moment, meaning to re-engage with Africa. You're right. The issue of critical minerals are very important because as a matter of fact, if Australia is thinking about being a key player in the assets to some of these critical minerals, then we need to rethink and then see how to engage more with Africa. For instance, Africa holds about 30 % of world critical mineral reserves. And then of course, when you look at some of these countries, you see how some of these countries, have a multilateral somehow bilateral partnership with countries like China. And of course, we understand what we are passing through here in the Pacific, some of these drivers and others. So Australia is a middle power country, is thinking about being a key player, not necessarily a domineer, but a key player in the hassles and subplot of these critical minerals, I think we need to engage more coherently and, if possible, proactively in a strategic way with many of these African countries. And then the other point I think we've escaped has to do with the issue of education, the education sector. Just last year, for instance, education was about fourth largest export of Australia. And then the growth of this sector itself, know, so certain understand depends on how we have access to overseas students. And one of the recent Ethereum report that looked into international education that was released last year specifically recommended a kind of a market diversification plan that incorporate having access to students for some Sahara Africa. And of course, we understand that some of the existing projection by 2050, Africa is still hosting about 35 % of world youth. So thinking about some of these issues from education to critical minerals to multilateralism to trade diversification, I think there's so many reasons that we at this moment, Australia, we need to really see how to engage more with many of these African countries.

David Andrews

Thank you. Lisa, how are you seeing things from your time in Africa? How are you seeing the role of China expanding or changing or growing, if indeed you are seeing that, I'm not sure, what are your reflections?

Lisa Filippetto

Well, China is very popular with many governments in Africa. And the reason for that is the loan system. China has introduced massive loans to Africa or infrastructure projects mainly. And those infrastructure projects tend to have an economic impact, which governments appreciate. There is also investment in sort of flagship projects, you know, building a ministry, building the African Union. A very splendid building in Addis Ababa, the African Union Commission, building and conference facilities was done by Africa. The investment in some important infrastructure in the harbours, the ports. So of course there are some countries that have pushed back on that, but I would say generally the loan issue is a very substantive draw. And going back to why superpowers or why major powers are interested in Africa is about that nexus between the economic and security imperatives. So the security imperative of having access to the rarest minerals. The security, I think another security aspect is the trade flows that go through the Red Sea, the trade flows that go around Africa. You know, unless Africa is sort of onside and supportive of some of these trade routes that could become a little bit difficult. So as these minerals and rare earths become more scarce with time, they'll be scarcer globally. And I think that African countries will be sharing those minerals with other countries that recognise the independence and agency of individual countries so that, know, getting rid perhaps of that that colonial mentality that that we're there to exploit, but really to build a relationship of mutual interest and mutual trust so that the trade in those, the investment in those sectors and the trade in those sectors is done in a way that understands the agency of African countries. So China has understood that and has been very clever in its diplomacy. And when I was ambassador, I made a point of visiting the Chinese ambassador in every country where I was responsible to get the feeling of, you know, how they were placed. And how they were placed was, you know, the connection they had with senior levels of government, the connections they have with security, you know, and maybe some military, not so much, but they build those networks. They have that very long-term view that we tend to ignore. Just as a quick example, there's a small country called Djibouti, which is on the tip of the Horn of Africa at the end of the Red Sea. And many of our listeners may not have heard of it, but... major powers have been building military bases there. We have a Chinese military base. We have a huge US military base. The French have built a base, have been there for a long time actually. The Japanese have a military base. The Saudi Arabians are building a military base. Spain and Italy all have military bases there. So they recognise the security benefits of having a strong presence in Africa, not only diplomatically, but also... in a very selected way, military presence as well. And so I think we need to understand that the geopolitical reality of Africa's power, multilaterally, economically and demographically, cannot be ignored.

David Andrews

Matthew, do you have any reflections on this, the role of China and others in Africa?

Matthew Neuhaus

Well, China is central to the relationship and the rise of China and its emergence from being the, the middle kingdom to a global power in our era is one of the most central developments globally, but it's also central to Africa. One needs to be conscious that China has a deep relationship with Africa since the period of the liberation movements as a boy growing up in Tanzania in the 60s and 70s. I remember the Chinese building, the famous Tanzam Railway, which was opening up that interior at the time. But more importantly, when I was ambassador, in Zimbabwe only 10 years ago, we had a very interesting and complex relationship with China because our mining companies were actually selling most of the product to China. And I used to say the most important ambassador I needed to know after the American ambassador was the Chinese ambassador because our relationship was so close. But we also had, we shared with African nations issues around how you work and engage with China. And at that time, we were seen as a bit of a success. We ran an Australia Africa leadership dialogue on the Zambezi River back then 10 years ago with the support of ASPE, simply on engaging the dragon, as it was called. And I think one of the things African nations like about Australia, particularly working in the mining sector, is they bring an alternative way of operating. And it comes down to values. And we have values where we are much more safety conscious. We employ and empower local labor and we build in the community, our companies build schools and hospitals. This the African nations like, and they like to have their own possibility of choice and to see competition. They don't want China to control them. They're very conscious, particularly coming out of an era of colonialism. So they very much appreciate countries like Australia staying engaged. We also have, as Babatunde was highlighting, we're able to provide best world-class practice training. We, a few years ago, also in that period, a decade ago, had a specific mining governance training program, and we were investing in that. And I think we need to invest more in that. It'll help Africa. It'll help us. And it will also help make this relationship with China more realistic. Because I think in engaging with China, China will have to work with in the current world. We need to engage it globally. And not just see it as a threat, but see it as has often been said, as a nation we can cooperate with when we can. And in Africa, at this point, we can cooperate with China as well as I think it's important for us to be there to give an alternative to China.

David Andrews

Fascinating. Thank you. Now for our final question, I've asked all of our panellists to think about their one principle recommendation for Australia to enhance its relationship with Africa and African countries. So perhaps Lisa, I'll start with you this time around. What would be your one key recommendation for Australian policymakers on Africa?

Lisa Filippetto

Well, I think we need to change our mindset to recognise Africa's geopolitical power, its entrepreneurial and technological bent that underpins its economic growth now and in the future. And we must embrace the aspirations of its peoples to be part of a global community that cares about jobs for youth and the state of our planet. But the image and the narrative has to shift, I think. And so that's why I'm starting with that as the recommendation. We have images that undersell Africa's capabilities and which undersell Australia's existing footprint economically in Africa. I think that at the government level, we should recalibrate taking into account that mindset shift, we should recalibrate our foreign defence and trade policy to embrace the opportunities of meaningful engagement with African countries. I think we've heard already that if we have from, you know, Professor Babatunde, if we have a nuanced approach and we see these countries for what we can learn from each other and gain from each other, that's important. I think we should be clear sighted about any spillover effects from the limited number of countries in which terrorist groups are active. We should be engaging with them, learning from them, expressing solidarity with countries, experiencing such challenges, and should be part of our security worldview. So when we look at the map of Africa, there will be countries, and we have this image mindset change, we will recognise that there are countries that are easier to work with that want to work with us. There are countries who experiencing security difficulties and economic difficulties. But that sense of respect for African nations and respect for their peoples, I think is also, should be very part of, you know, grounding for our policy makers. The level of education that people have in Africa, the level of their global outreach to Europe, to China. One of the most popular routes from Nairobi is Nairobi to Guangzhou. So that is just a sign of the future. So let's shift that mindset, get rid of the blind spot and get on with engaging in areas of importance to Australia's security, in areas of importance to Australia's economic future and having people to people links. We are a migrant multicultural country and in the future we will, the labor force of professionals, technicians that I expect will be coming from Africa will be important to our economy. Thank you.

David Andrews

Thanks very much, Lisa. Matthew, your primary recommendation.

Matthew Neuhaus

Well, you would expect me to say this, but it's education. And I think education is at so many levels, but essentially, it's at the tertiary level. I think we should build on the Australia Awards program we already have. It's a mere 45 Australia Awards with a couple of other programs associated with it. There was a time when we had around 400 a year for Africa, and I think we need to get back to those sorts of numbers. It not only enhances capacity within African nations in both the private and the public sector, it enhances personal relationships and it also actually is the sort of support that Australia benefits from too with its own tertiary institutions. And I think we should be running programs in Africa as well as Africans coming to Australian institutions. I particularly like the sort of thing Curtin University is doing at the moment with its campus in Mauritius, for example. I'd like to see more of that. But I think the more we have an education partnership with Africa, the more we will both benefit from it and African nations will themselves be able to build up their capacities. Shared knowledge is the way forward.

David Andre4ws

Brilliant. Thanks. And Babatunde, the final word goes to you, your recommendation.

Babatunde Obamamoye

Yes, I think my fundamental recommendation will be that Australia should incorporate Africa more into the strategic national security interest. For instance, a national university like ours here in Australia National University has no specific African centre. So absolutely, maybe perhaps the problem is honestly because of the perspective we didn't hear you here, or perhaps it has to do with kind of national policy. So Australia should incorporate Africa more into its strategic policies. And of course, the current international system is in transition. So many things are changing, different alliances and different partnership. So I believe that developing a more proactive strategy for foreign policy towards Africa may be a step in the right direction for Australia.

David Andrews

Thank you. What a great note to finish on. Lisa, Matthew, Babatunde, thanks for joining Melissa and I on the National Security Podcast.

Matthew Neuhaus

Thank you, David.

Babatunde Obamamoye

Thank you.

Lisa Filippetto

Thanks, Melissa.

 

National Security Podcast

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