Transcript

Why is the Indo-Pacific of importance to Canada? Will it have a more consistent presence in the region in the future? 

How is Canada adapting its defence capabilities to meet the demands of a rapidly changing geopolitical and technological landscape? 

What lessons has Canada drawn from the war in Ukraine, and how are these shaping the future of its armed forces and military operations? 

In this episode, General Jennie Carignan joins Sally Bulkeley to discuss Canada’s evolving defence posture amid a shifting strategic landscape, with a focus on interoperability with partners like Australia, its Indo-Pacific commitments, and lessons drawn from the war in Ukraine. 

(This transcript is AI-generated and may contain inaccuracies.)

Jennie Carignan

It's a persistent presence via various means. it's about maritime cooperation exercises to test interoperability and especially in a bilateral way with Australia.

National Security Podcast

You're listening to the National Security Podcast, the show that brings you expert analysis, insights and opinion on the national security challenges facing Australia and the Indo-Pacific produced by the ANU National Security College.

Sally Bulkeley

Welcome to the National Security Podcast. I'm Sally Bulkeley, Deputy Head of the National Security College here at the ANU. And today's podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people, and I pay my respects to their elders past and present. And this week, I feel very privileged to be joined by General Jenny Carignan, Canada's Chief of Defence Staff, who has taken time out of her very busy schedule to speak with us while in Canberra during her inaugural counterpart visit to Australia.

General Carignan graduated from the Royal Military College of Canada and was commissioned into the Canadian Military Engineers in 1990. And since then, she has commanded two combat engineer regiments, Royal Military College, St. John and the 2nd Canadian Division and led NATO mission Iraq from November 2019 to November 2020. She has previously participated in expeditionary operations in Bosnia Herzegovina the Golan Heights and Afghanistan. And from 2021 to 2023, General Carignan served as chief of professional conduct and culture and was appointed chief of defence staff in July 2024. General, welcome to the National Security Podcast.

Jennie Carignan

Thank you, Sally. Delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.

Sally Bulkeley

And look, I believe this is your first counterpart visit to the Chief of Defence Force, Admiral David Johnston, and it comes back off last weekend's Shangri-La dialogue. How have you found your time in Australia and the Shangri-La dialogue?

Jennie Carignan

Very, very informative. Admiral Johnston and I meet regularly via various other gatherings and forums. So for example, we regularly meet with our Five Eyes counterpart. So we have the opportunity for regular exchanges. The Shangri-La dialogue was my first. And to me, it's about better understand the context, the dynamics, and the situation in this big region and very diverse region as well. So, very, very informative as I again craft various military advice for our government. So a better understanding of the region.

Sally Bulkeley

And over the many years of service and now in the CDS role, what has given you cause to reflect on the Australia Canada relationship?

Jennie Carignan

So close relationship. are both Admiral Johnson and I are amazed sometimes when we exchange on our particular situation how much we have in common. Just a massive territory, landmass with very few people. have, you know, again, similar population numbers. Our forces have, again, similar sizes.

Also, indigenous reconciliation is another aspect that we have a lot in common. And again, similar history in terms of participation to international conflict, First World War, Second World War, Bosnia and Afghanistan. Almost on every one of those missions, I have been. I've had Australian colleagues working side by side with our Australian colleagues.

Sally Bulkeley

And General, the similarities and the commonalities between Australia and Canada are definitely felt here in Australia. And certainly, we do see the term cousins at play between both partnerships with Australia and Canada. And just reflecting on your Indigenous reconciliation theme, certainly for us, as we look at Canadians Armed Forces and the North Star Initiative, certainly here in Australia, we also within North Arnhem Lan, look at surveillance and look at the importance of our Indigenous communities in supporting capability as well.

But moving on to the recent federal election and on 28th of April, we did see the Liberal government re-elected into the new term and Mark Carney continuing his presence as the Prime Minister of Canada. What sorts of advice could you offer to the listeners about the agendas that will support national security and defence policy for Canada in this term.

Jennie Carignan

So same party, I would say, but new government. We have a new minister of defense as well. So that means change, of course. And it also is clear from this new government that defence is going to be a priority. And we can definitely expect defence to be at the centre of what this government will want to accomplish.

The defence of Canada, the defence of the Arctic and the defence of Canadians is definitely one of the priorities that this government will have.

Sally Bulkeley

Thank you, General. And if we can move on to the Indo-Pacific and our focus on the growing strategic competition arising with China and the US, we are seeing continuing aggression with China through our Pacific nations, but also we are seeing tensions arise through the European conflict with the Russia and the Ukraine.

We're starting to see the emergence more so of Euro-Atlantic and Indo-Pacific engagement and opportunities for greater minilateralism. How will Canada balance its three-ocean presence, both the Arctic Atlantic and the Pacific, recognising that Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy provides cause as well for focus.

Jennie Carignan

It is so clear that everything is interconnected in a global environment. So we currently have, as you mentioned, an Indo-Pacific strategy that does inform our work in the region, but also we have a defence policy that was published last year at about this time. So this, for me, informs our posture in three main areas. One is the defence of Canada and the Arctic. Two is Europe and three is the Indo-Pacific. And they are all priority areas for us to concentrate our work.

Canada has a Pacific coast of over 25,000 kilometres. We have significant interest in this region. Six of our 13 top trade partners are in the Asia Pacific region. And again, we have a lot of interest in that the region remains stable, accessible, so that we can conduct our normal activities with our partners in the region. we have a lot of interest that this region remains peaceful and stable.

Sally Bulkeley

In general, have seen an increased presence of Canadian armed forces through the Indo-Pacific, particularly through our allied and partner exercises and activities. We've seen the Royal Canadian Naval visit conducted at Taiwan's straight transit in February last year. We saw a multilateral maritime cooperative activities within the Philippines, exclusive economic zone, in August last year and February this year.

But also captured here within the Australian mainland and context, we've been very fortunate to have Canadian forces join us for exercise Kakadu last year and the incoming Talisman Sabre, which is taking place in mid-July this year as well. Should we expect to see more of Canada in activities and exercises in the Indo-Pacific and a more consistent presence in the region?

Jennie Carignan

Yes, it's the exact posture that we want to have and the effect we want to have in the region. So it's a persistent presence via various means. So it's about maritime cooperation exercises to test interoperability. And especially in a bilateral way with Australia, we conducted the rearmament in Australia, which is a significant undertaking.

So, so proud of that collaboration and what was achieved during that rearmament. But it's also about developing capabilities with various partners in the region that is tailored to their needs. So in some cases, there is a demand for peacekeeping, education and training. In other cases, it's about cyber defence. In other cases, it's about disaster response.

So again, and multilateral exercises. so it is very varied and we are definitely increasing our collaboration via our key partners in the region.

Sally Bulkeley

It's great to hear the expansion of those collaborative activities beyond hard power and into statecraft and diplomacy. And I think also we start to look at science research and development opportunities and emerging technological cooperation as well. We've seen Canada as a potential observer and advisor to AUKUS Pillar 2 and an emergence of the Quad as well.

And I think the globe calls for greater minilateralism and greater partnerships. Where do you see Canada's presence in the international fora when it comes to the Indo-Pacific?

Jennie Carignan

In particular for Australia, we are expanding our collaboration in the research and development aspect of new technologies. So for example, hypersonic vehicles is an area where we are collaborating, but we'll be expanding our exchanges. We are also working on over the horizon radar technology with Australia. And for us, it's extremely important as we look at covering the Arctic region. And again, I chuckled a little bit because Australia is looking from the other side. So get together to tackle the technological problem. And again, for us, it's a key aspect of how we want to layer technology to better have domain awareness over the Arctic region.

Sally Bulkeley

And I'm very keen to discuss with you the joint capability further on in the podcast. I'd like to move on to building a military capability in the future. And certainly when we start to look at the commonalities of Canada and Australia, we both have quite ambitious capability platform programs at the moment, recognizing that Canada is procuring an entire naval surface fleet, seeing similarities in the subtype 26 of our Hunter class. We also see a new range of conventionally powered submarines, tactical helicopters, combat aircraft.

And as the globe is undergoing a transformation shaped by geopolitical tensions and working our way into technological advancements as described before, all have an impact on the way by which we will build our capabilities for our defence in the future,

in accordance with our strategic environment, how are you managing that challenge?

Jennie Carignan

So this is another area where we have a very common situation in approach. So over the past 30 years plus post Cold War, what we have asked our militaries to do are limited objectives, expeditionary operation, a wide range of type of operations from peacekeeping to stability to combat operations.

But again, in a very focused manner and within a very specific scenario. So Afghanistan is probably an example that we can take. But as we are looking at the global environment and how it is evolving and changing rapidly with the posture of our adversaries, we need to get ready for large scale conflict, conventional, and so on and so forth. So the capabilities you need for that are fundamentally different than the ones we've had in the past.

So many of our allies and partners are in the same situation and we can definitely see that transition and transformation currently happening with our Australian colleagues. And then this is also the journey upon which we have embarked. So being here and have the opportunity to exchange on lessons learned and best practices is hugely invaluable in terms of insights and way forward. So we can compare good practices and the ones that we want to avoid and again, hugely useful in terms of affecting a big transformation.

Sally Bulkeley

You make a really good point on a focused military effect and in the Australia context, we talk about a focused and integrated force as well. And I'd like to ask you with further insights on where you see further interoperability and commonality with not just Australia, but allies and partners.

Jennie Carignan

So interoperability is extremely important because we can offer a better defence and a better deterrence effect together. And working together towards that offers balance in the region. When we look at China, this is massive in terms of effect that they are projecting. So having more partners getting together to counterbalance is extremely important.

So how we work together and how we become effective at actually operating is key to having that deterring effect. Because in the end, this is what we want to achieve in terms of effect so that we avoid conflict and having to fight.

Sally Bulkeley

And if I can take us to a different context, which is up in the Northern continent and thinking about deterrence as well. so Canada's involvement in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, NATO, and its bilateral engagement with the Northern Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), together with the US, there are many uncertainties taking place at the moment in relation to US's views on how it will position itself across the European geopolitical environment, in particular looking at a greater focus on European nations, increasing defence expenditure, thinking about how they will also contribute to the European tension efforts, but also thinking about some of the other announcements that have been made on the future of Greenland.

 

With all of those uncertain announcements, politics and strategic environment at play, how do you see Canada's NATO and NORAD roles evolving?

Jennie Carignan

So those defence arrangements are extremely important to Canada and our intention is to remain committed to those arrangements. So we are firmly committed to our collective defence via NATO and that is extremely important to our defence. in addition to that, NORAD is also another key aspect.

We can't change our geography and it's much easier to defend Canada together with the United States in a bilateral way as we can help each other in that sense. With the development of missile technology, Canada's territory is not as well protected as it used to be 20 years ago.

So this whole aspect of integrated air missile defense is key and again, missiles don't worry about borders. So doing this together is extremely important. That work is ongoing with the United States and we continue our work with NATO. And in terms of engagement, we are leading the multinational brigade in Latvia with 12 other partners in NATO. So again, we remain committed to that aspect as we continue our engagement and presence and commitment to NATO.

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Sally Bulkeley

You mentioned as part of that the Aerospace Defence Command and the restrictions that are upon us when it concerns integrated and air missile defence, particularly from the geography of which Canada is situated. What will the JORN acquisition mean for the Canadian Armed Forces? And do you see bilateral defence industrial cooperation coming from JORN, not only in its immediate effect of surveillance, but also its secondary effect of meeting other mission effects.

Jennie Carignan

So the JORN will be part of the overall system that we want to put in place for domain awareness. And it's going to have to be complemented by other technology as well because of the size of our territory, because of the challenge that the curve of the earth is giving us in a polar region.

So it's going to be a combination of a few things to make sure that we have redundancy and that we have the necessary technology to be able to see what's coming towards us. So that collaboration in terms of adapting the technology to the Arctic environment and that work that we are doing with Australia, again, that partnership in terms of industrial collaboration is all included within the JORN project that we have undertaken with Australia. So very, very excited about it.

Sally Bulkeley

And with that in mind, do you have insights that you can share on your vision then for the space and cyber domains within Canada's focus on again, the three ocean presence, certainly in the Australian context, space domain is still relatively new and Australian government is seeking greater focus on workforce to be able to build on that space domain and also in the cyber domain with again, that technological cooperation.

Very keen to hear your views from the Canadian context.

Jennie Carignan

So we, on the cyber defense, we have been working at constructing a cyber capability over the past 10 years, which resulted in last fall, formally establishing our cyber command as part of our capabilities. So in so many ways, this is a success story not only in terms of what we can do within Canada, but also what we can do with various partners. So our cyber capabilities work in Latvia and in Ukraine as well, and also here on in the Indo-Pacific with various partners.

So Japan is one of our main partners and again, exploring other areas for collaboration. So our cyber command commander will be in the area in a July timeframe to interact with our various partners. So in so many ways, we are already at war in the cyber space. so again, keeping, improving that capability over the long time is important. So an area that is extremely important to us on the space aspect, we have a space command established for a few years now and again, very similar to Australia, building that capability up. The aim here will be to have ⁓ more sovereign capabilities, but again, we cannot do everything and doing it in partnership with our allies is going to be key to our success as well.

Sally Bulkeley

Thanks, General. And I think we're coming towards the end of our podcast. And before we leave today, it would be great to share with the listeners your leadership and your visions for the future. And of course, in today's environment, being a strategic leader in such great uncertainty is both challenging and opportunistic at the same time. And through your experience as army officer and combat engineer, what lessons have you learnt from the ongoing war in Ukraine and how will they be applied to the way Canadian Armed Forces fight, raise, train, sustain? What sort of leadership are you providing to your Canadian Armed Forces to reassure them of what mission is at play?

Jennie Carignan

So Ukraine has signalled to us that increased demand on evolving our militaries towards more conventional and large scale conflicts. this is the first signal that we started to receive that, we're probably at an inflection point where you need to engage on transformational aspect of your military.

So this was the first signal. This is what Ukraine has been teaching us. The principles of mass innovation are at the forefront as well. maybe there was an argument out there that we could go lighter because of exquisite technologies, but this is not what we see in Ukraine. So hence that has sent a signal from our side to refocus on mobilizing – having the capability to grow forces quickly in a situation of crisis. Because different capabilities are required. You can't maintain a force of one million people already at the regular force type of level of readiness. But there's many things that you can do to be ready for that.

So the second word that I would use to qualify where the Canadian Armed Forces are today is mobilization. So transformation and mobilization is the state of affair that we find ourselves into.

Sally Bulkeley

And with your early experiences of unit and divisional command across multiple countries and combat zones, how have they helped you to prepare for leading the Canadian Armed Forces, particularly in this complex time of strategic uncertainty?

Jennie Carignan

I think the main lesson learned over the past, like I'm starting my 40th year of service this year, is that we cannot expect clarity and we need to expect the ambiguous and uncertainty, even more the strategic level, because the strategic level is about human interacting and being very, very unpredictable in terms of behaviour. So how to be comfortable being uncomfortable is I think the mindset that we have to be able to get to in this context. And so how to go about that, it doesn't mean that we quit and we say, I can't predict, I can't control, so I can't do anything about it.

As you work the problem iteratively, the problem has a tendency to reveal itself to you as you keep working it. So you need a fundamentally different type of leadership to be successful in an environment such as like this, because you have to be able to learn with things that didn't work properly. And so it's about consistently learning and consistently injecting more energy towards a solution and then work it out like that over time.

You know, I would rather have full visibility on the problem. You design a solution and you apply it and then you win at the end of the day. Well, that's how you fix an engine. That's an engineer problem. It's easy. It's mathematical. you know, it's scientific. But when you're trying to deal with a China, a Russia, a Ukraine, the solution is not as obvious as it is. So working iteratively in uncertain environment, that's what leadership has to do nowadays.

Sally Bulkeley

General, I appreciate the growth mindset challenge that prevails there and also the metaphor spoken like a true engineer. One last further question, if I can indulge you. So we've just discussed insights that could also then expand itself upon Australian Defence Force as well in relation to how they might tackle uncertainty. You've been a great champion over the last couple of years for the Canadian Armed Forces within your role.

In terms of recruiting and retention, what are your wise words that you can offer not only to your Canadian Armed Forces, but also the broader public on the mission at play for the Canadian Armed Forces? What are the types of headline messages that you would like to provide out there?

Jennie Carignan

Well, I think the defence of our country and our people is an honourable and privileged mission that we have. And ⁓ I take a great sense of pride in having the privilege to do this. And I think, again, our service members are extremely proud as well to contribute to that. And I think in the current environment, this is taking, you know, more room in our daily lives. Because if we can't get this right, then it's difficult to provide economy and economy, stability, wealth for our people. this is all mutually complimentary. So I cannot emphasize enough amongst our Canadian public that the role of defence is important.

Canadians can contribute to that in various different ways, not just in uniform, but in many different ways.

Sally Bulkeley

I'd like to echo your sentiments there. Certainly when we start to think about preparedness and resilience in the Australian context, it's not only the mission upon our armed forces colleagues, but also how our civil society and businesses contribute to our overall mission. General, it's been an absolute pleasure having you here today to discuss with us the Indo-Pacific military capabilities, relationships, and what a time to have this discussion.

Wishing you all the best on your visit here in Australia and best of luck with the G7 summer in a few weeks’ time.

Jennie Carignan

Thank you, Sally. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

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