Transcript

What is intergenerational security and how does it intersect with traditional concepts of national security?

How do intergenerational dynamics and differing interactions with technology, social media and AI impact security and resilience?

What are the security issues that young Australians care about and how do these differ from the concerns of older Australians?

In this episode Sally Bulkeley is joined by Afeeya Akhand and Victoria Cooper to discuss intergenerational security and the differing perspectives across age demographics in Australia.

(This transcript is AI-generated and may contain inaccuracies.)

Afeeya Akhand

We've already experienced and are currently in the midst of the climate crisis already. This isn't a distant thing that will happen in 10, 20, 30 years and the older generation of people won't encounter, but it's already happening around us.

Victoria Cooper

When we're thinking about finances, that becomes really black and white. Do we feel that benefit? Do we feel comfortable? Do we feel anxious about the future? We can have all the bombs and rockets in the world, we can have all the ships in the water, but at the end of the day, if the citizens don't feel like they can afford groceries on the table, it doesn't matter.

You're listening to the National Security Podcast, the show that brings you expert analysis, insights and opinion on the national security challenges facing Australia and the Indo-Pacific, produced by the ANU National Security College.

Sally Bulkeley

Welcome to the National Security Podcast. I'm Sal Bulkeley, Deputy Head of the ANU National Security College. And today's podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Ngunnawal and Ambury people, and I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. Today we offer a special podcast that explores the concepts of intergenerational security from the Australian context. This episode comes at a time when the NSC is embarking upon a journey to discover Australian perceptions of national security and security risk, taking into account the views across all generations, including Generation Z and Generation Alpha. It is my absolute pleasure that I introduce two special podcasters today from NSC's emerging associates, who form part of our NSC affiliates program, Victoria Cooper and Afeeya Akhand.

Victoria Cooper is a researcher and political analyst based in Melbourne. She's currently an editorial consultant at the Development Intelligence Lab, was the research and editorial assistant on Trump's Australia by Bruce Walpy in 2023, and the editor-in-chief of the Young Diplomat Society between 2020 and 2022. Victoria is the author of Dinner Table Politics, a newsletter that analyses political disagreement, conflict and intolerance at the dinner table, and provides practical advice to help people approach politics with greater empathy and respect.

Afeeya is committed to the promotion of cultural diversity and intersectionality in foreign policy and national security. She is the Secretary of Women in International Security Australia and is a committee member of Careers in Colour, a not-for-profit dedicated to advancing the inclusion of people of colour in Australian workplaces. Afeeya's insights have been featured in print and on radio through ABC and SBS News and she has spoken at Australian and international conferences.

We are not only inspired by the remarkable achievements by these distinguished individuals, but also their contributions to women in national security leadership. Afeeya, Victoria, welcome to the National Security Podcast.

Afeeya Akhand

Thank you for having us.

Victoria Cooper

 Thanks.

Sally Bulkeley

So Victoria, we will start with you. The concept of intergenerational security is a priority here at the NSC as part of our policy agenda. It'd be great to get your understanding of what it actually means.

Victoria Cooper

And yeah, it's a great question to begin with. I think intergenerational security to me is much more future-facing than traditional understandings of national security. I think it's looking at the long-term strategic environment. And it's also making sure today's security decisions do not impose disproportionate risks or costs on future Australians. So not just thinking about the security of Australians here and now, but also thinking about the future of Australians in 20 to 50 years.

Sally Bulkeley

Yeah, thanks Victoria, Afeeya would you like to expand upon that?

Afeeya Akhand

Yeah, I feel like Victoria's already provided such a wonderful overview of that. But adding on to it, looking at the fact that when it comes to our understanding of security, the fact that there are a range of issues that are evolving and emerging, especially that younger generations are interested, especially when it comes to AI risks around the innovation technology, but also climate change as well, where when we look at the region, especially in developing countries, are the ones at the forefront of climate impacts. We see youth bulges in lot of these countries where there's a massive proportion of young people. who are the ones who will be impacted by climate change and other security issues as well. And that's why it is so essential to have younger generations integrated into decision-making to ensure that we aren't just safeguarding them now, but the interests of those people in the future as well.

Sally Bulkeley

And so, with that in mind, which components matter most to intergenerational security? think, you know, we think about traditional security concepts. As we've gone through our community consultations outreach, we have heard traditional security lies with federal government. It's defence, it's home affairs. I mean, for the emerging generation, we're looking at economic, environmental, social, technological and political security issues. What a wonderful laundry list to take. Afeeya, which one of those do you think matters most at this point?

Afeeya Akhand

That's a really tricky question because as you said, it is a bit of a laundry list and it seems like you can almost put anything in front of security and make it a security issue and securitise it. But I see that rather than looking at these issues as discrete areas, it's about looking at how they interact and how they often compound security challenges as well. So in particular, as you mentioned, there has been this traditional understanding of traditional security concerns and looking at defence and the role of preserving and protecting our borders, for example. But the reality is as well when it comes to the reality of great power competition within the region, we see technology as a way interacting with that where countries are increasingly using AI and miss and disinformation to try and spread their influence. Or when it comes to economic security, economic coercion, tariffs, protectionist measures as a way to try and influence countries as well. Ever a societal perspective, seeing the fact that how much you trust your government is also a sign of like how robust your national security ecosystem is as well.

So ultimately, I guess that's a bit of a cheating answer because I'm not saying one area is more important than the other, but looking at the fact that it is so hard to separate these different things because they all really interact and come together to compound these risks.

Sally Bulkeley

Yeah, thank you, Afeeya. And Victoria, do you agree with that synopsis? Do you think compounding, contesting, concurrent pressures, is it difficult to answer that question?

Victoria Cooper

Yeah, it is all of the above for sure. They all inform one another. Economics informs traditional understanding of security of bombs and rockets and it informs political and social outcomes. I think all of these things are really interconnected. I think if I was to try and come up with a creative answer, if I was thinking about which component was most important, I think something that I've been thinking a lot about is public perception. Because ultimately what is national security for? Is it for the concept of the Australian state? What's national security trying to do? What's it trying to protect? And I think at the end of the day, it is protecting citizens. So to some level, I think when we're thinking about national security, there's also an element where we need to look at how the public perceives national security. I think the National Security College has been doing a lot of work in that domain recently. But thinking about things like Afeeya mentioned, things like trust.

Does the public trust the government? Do they trust institutions? Do they trust politicians are working in their interest? All of those things comprise national security and are often overlooked. So when we're talking about intergenerational security and also how this concept has evolved, I think the idea is looking at human security, looking at how they perceive their government, how they relate to the government, and how they understand their own security is becoming more important.

Sally Bulkeley

I love that, Victoria, we're talking social licence here and how social licence can add to the voice of security as well. Moving on to that very shortly, but taking ourselves two steps back into something Afeeya mentioned earlier around our geopolitical landscape and how that seems to have a profound impact at the moment on intergenerational security. I'd be really keen to hear from you from a generational lens on how today's geopolitical environment is having an impact on Gen Z and Gen Alpha.

Victoria Cooper

I think to begin with, I have been thinking about how I wasn't around when Francis Fukuyama said it was the end of history and how quickly that concept has proved to be untrue. think we've really evolved from a situation where we had the unipolar moment and it felt like Australia kind of knew the direction that its security was going to go in. We kind of felt like we didn't have to play a role in the region. And maybe that's oversimplifying, but to some extent Australia could rely much on the status quo. rather than needing to necessarily work out its own security. And I think that has radically shifted. And I think the rise of China has definitely prompted that kind of shift. And so I think when we're thinking about the geopolitical conditions, we're growing up, let's say 30 years post-Francis Fukuyama's end of history, and a lot has changed. The region looks radically different. Australia looks radically different. Our relationship with the US looks quite different in a number of ways.

And so I think all of this is prompting us to have a new idea of what geopolitics looks like. And it does mean that the future, and we often talk about this, it's kind of said as a cliche, it's unprecedented times. We're living in like a new stage of history. We don't know what the future is going to look like. We are living in uncertain times. And so this generation growing up now, generation Z, generation alpha, isn't growing up in the same way that those in the 1990s did, where it felt more secure, where it felt more certain, where we kind of knew where to hedge our bets. Now Australia has to be more agile. It has to be more flexible, it has to be more adaptive. And I think that kind of creates a bit more cognizance around the public about what's going on around them, because things do feel uncertain. And we're having to put a lot of trust in our decision makers to make decisions in our interests.

Sally Bulkeley

I like the idea of fore-sighting and innovation paving the way there with our emerging leadership with Generation Z and Generation Alpha. And I think if we were to look at modern Australia today, it's got a rich tapestry of multiculturalism built in into Australia's architecture. Afeeya I’d be keen to hear your views on global dynamics and there's a lot of events that obviously taking place in concurrent ways, how do you think that affects our younger generation?

Afeeya Akhand

Yeah, definitely. And similarly to what Victoria was highlighting, a lot of young people, we've grown up in this post-Fukuyama world and a very different view of what security is. In particular, as we become more globalized, the fact that a lot of young Australians, we have connections overseas with this incredible statistic that half of Australians were born overseas or have at least one parent born overseas. And coming with that brings intercultural knowledge, multilingual skills that lot of Australians have.

So I think when it comes to the traditional conception of national security, especially looking at a microcosm like Canberra, even seeing how security clearance processes work in governments where it might have been particular young men who come from wealthy backgrounds who were Anglo-Celtic, and you could very easily verify their backgrounds when it comes to working in the government environment. But now we see a lot more younger people also assisted by technology and increased interconnectedness, being able to connect more broadly with the region and having those friends and families overseas which change their perception of what security is. So when it comes to creating an us versus them mentality, whether it's around terrorist groups or particular great powers, it's a lot more tricky because you might have those personal connections that muddies things and it's not necessarily about having allegiance only to Australia, but having those connections internationally that shape your view of what security is as well. So definitely sometimes within the political community, within national security that can be demonised around citizenship and allegiance when it comes to your country. But at same time, I see it brings opportunities because it's about the fact that we are currently undergoing and inquiring government around Asian literacy and there's always these recurrent debates about how do we improve our engagement with the region. But the reality is that we already have so many young people who have these diverse perspectives and these lived experiences that can help enrich the conversation and that can bring their lived experiences to really help us when it comes to engaging with the broader region.

Sally Bulkeley

And Afeeya I think when we start to look at that connection, the social connections of both generations, generation alpha, in fact all generations, we have both the connection face to face, which is more the human interactions that of course of my generation of 30 years ago was the traditional concept. But now we're in this digital age and we have digital natives. And I'd be very keen to hear your perspectives on the digital information environment, how it intersects with both security concerns, but there's a balance to be met here on social connectedness too. So really keen to hear your thoughts there, including the use of AI. What's the balance there? Is there a balance?

Afeeya Akhand

Definitely. So when it comes to digital environment and AI, we see that it is disrupting and it has a whole range of societal, national security, economic benefits, but also risks as well, especially when it comes to this younger generation. So in particular, one really interesting statistic I saw was that according to that e-safety commissioner, deepfakes is a significant issue, especially when it comes to the spread of deepfakes of underage Australians, of explicit images. And those images have more than doubled in terms of explicit images of underage Australians being shared since 2023. So that's one sort of risk when it comes to young people online and this distortion of perception around what is reality versus what isn't real. And we can see these negative side effects of AI as well, where especially younger people like using AI and using technology as a way to form that social connection, especially if you are in a part of Australia or somewhere where you don't have that physical sense of connection.

We saw that in COVID as well, but then often these negative impacts resulting such as using it for mental health proxy or even young people, for example, sadly taking their lives because they've been prompted by chat GPT or AI to do so. But in particular, I see that there's a positive policy response from Australian government in that now there's an AI safety institute that will be released and that'll be launched next year. And that will respond specifically to AI related risks and harms.

Having said this, when it comes to policy responses, we have to ensure that they aren't just band-aid solutions either. So later this month, we'll see this social media ban for under 16s introduced to restrict young people being able to use certain platforms. But I see that this is quite difficult to balance because on one hand, it's about protecting younger people from some of those risks around deepfakes and diss and misinformation information online. But the reality is that's not teaching young people digital literacy.

It's actually punishing that behaviour and then causing young people to probably go to unregulated platforms or trying to skirt around authority to try and still use social media. So we've seen in particular young people still being able to try and push back against that with the recent High Court case where young people are taking the federal government to court to try and challenge this ban based on the fact that it is actually an infringement on implied freedom of political communication for younger people.

So when it comes to young generation, and I think it's not just the younger generation, but more broadly in society, especially vulnerable populations, whether it's older Australians or people from culturally diverse backgrounds who might not speak English as a first language, building that digital literacy is so important, especially when we see that miss and disinformation is such a key trend online. And it can then interact with those geopolitics as well around the spread of disinformation around elections, for example, and whether it's Russian bots or specific state actors trying to influence democratic norms within a country and trying to reduce social cohesion within a country.

Sally Bulkeley

Yeah, thanks, Afeeya. And I think, you know, through our outreach program, through community consultations, we overheard education as a number one priority when it comes to media literacy. Victoria, I'd be very keen to hear your thoughts extending upon not only Generation Z and Generation Alpha, but more broadly, right across all generations. What does resilience look like when it comes to digital information environment, particularly as different generations of different media habits.

Victoria Cooper

Yeah, that's such a good point. And I think when Afeeya was talking, one of the first things I was thinking about is, you know, we have this iPad kid generation, you know, a bunch of kids, and let's say they're Generation Alpha. They've grown up with iPads, they know how to use them, they're showing their grandparents how to use the technology, blah, blah, blah. And I think the benefit of Generation Alpha, and let's throw Generation Z in the mix as well, is that because this generation has grown up with technology, they're quite adaptable. They're quite good at shifting from, okay, the first ever iPhone to the next iPhone, to the next thing, to the next thing, to AI. They're good at adapting.

Whereas I think what we've seen in older generations is slightly more maladaptation, let's say. And I think we can see in younger generations, and studies have shown that they're much better at picking up deepfakes, at picking up AI, and that media literacy piece is actually missing from older generations, that they're more likely to fall victim to scams, that kind of thing. So I think when we do think about media literacy and we think about resilience, we do have to think about an intergenerational perspective. Thinking about security, it's nice to think about the future. It's good to think about Gen Alpha, Gen Z, and how they're going to cope in 50 years time. But right now we also need to be thinking about how baby boomers, for example, are thinking about things right now as opposed to in 20 years time. So there's certain economic elements that we're thinking about, but there's also, as Afeeya astutely outlined, a lot of social concerns. In terms of resilience and how media can play out, I think what we can see is that because there is a greater level of avenues where people can source their news. we know that Generation Z, in particular, maybe not Generation Alpha, I don't think they care so much about the news, but Generation Z and millennials are much more likely to get their media from social media. And I think what this means is that different sources of information are having different influence in different cohorts. And this isn't a generational bit, this is also partisan. People's information is being algorithmically tailored to their pre-existing interests.

to what their friends are interested in. And so what we end up with is epistemic bubbles, where certain groups of societies are held captive by certain parts of information that other parts of society don't even have access to. Their algorithm isn't feeding that information. And so that creates concerns for social cohesion. And that's not a generational issue that expands all generations, that we have different information going to different pockets of society. And that raises a whole new question about what is true. It changes the way that people perceive issues.

And it also changes engagement. People are outraged about completely different things at different points in time. And so I think there's a real question about how do we break out from that kind of digital ecosystem where we're being fed information in that way and how on the community level and around dinner tables, as I like to talk about, how do we mediate the differences between us and kind of have a more diverse information and media appetite that does do things like bolster resilience.

National Security Podcast

We'll be right back.

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Sally Bulkeley

I really appreciate that there's a nuanced approach across these generations, but there needs to be some form of unity that goes hand in hand with that. And if we can go back to the social license conversation that we were having earlier, it'd be great to hear your thoughts, Victoria, on whether you're seeing a widening trust gap between younger and older Australians because of this changing media landscape, because of the way people absorb and understand information differently, the different types of media outlets. Gen X baby boomers tend to watch ABC News, it's in the background while you're making dinner and you're managing kids and whatnot. Yet, as you mentioned before, Generation Z tends to pick up on AI feeds or pick up on different types of digital environment. How is that trust gap? What is that and how do we tighten it?

Victoria Cooper

Yeah, it's so, I love the stereotypes about this because I definitely got socially ostracised for watching Q &A when I was in high school. My media appetite was ABC all the way. But I think that, I think when we're talking about trust, something that really stands out to me is statistics in recent times that have shown that Generation Z globally, and this is according to the OECD Youth Trust Survey, 61 % of Gen Z said politicians don't care about people like me.

And so I think we can see the confluence of different outcomes here where young people feel intergenerationally worse off, comparatively worse off than their parents. And so that feeds into this mechanism of distrust. So there's definitely social, digital drivers rather. There's definitely influences from online seeding distrust, creating misinformation and disinformation as we've heard about, and that is more accessible than ever. But then there's also elements where because this generation coming up now, Generation Z, Generation Alpha, are looking at their futures and thinking, hang on, this isn't fair. And that's something Australians really care about is fairness. Growing up in this ecosystem where we're like, this isn't fair, older generations are getting homes, I don't have these opportunities, I'm still paying off my student debt, what's this about? That within itself breeds mistrust and distrust. And politicians seeming not to care about the experiences of Generation Z. And I think they do. I think they do. But I think the perception is that they don't.

And looking around at people's fortune and this disparity between these senior generations and our generation, I think that is one of the drivers of this distrust alongside those kind of digital concerns that we talk about a lot.

Sally Bulkeley

And if we were to pick up on that in terms of the, again, the concept of trust, messaging, narrative, leadership, all of those things combined, it then interties with social cohesion as well. And again, going back to that rich tapestry of multiculturalism, looking at immigration in the last five to 10 years, how migrants settle into Australia's landscape, how they're welcomed, the information environment that's available to them as well in this current environment. Afeeya, I'd be really keen to hear your thoughts on what keeps societies cohesive across generational divides. I think we have, even without immigration patterns, families, older people, younger people, how do we build trust and build on social cohesion at the same time?

Afeeya Akhand

Yeah, that's a wonderful question because I think within the national security community, increasingly there are these mechanisms to engage youth, such as youth forums, youth delegates having the youth perspective engaged and included. But in a way that sometimes is a bit tokenistic because it seems to be a bit of a tick in the box approach. So in particular, something I'm a really big fan of is reverse mentoring. So of course, alot of young people are interested in the sector, interested in having their perspective heard.

But really at the end of day, it's about having people within influential positions of power, especially our leadership, who can then take those perspectives and help ensure that they are integrated and to act as your cheerleader and as your advocates. So as you've highlighted with this increasingly multicultural and diverse nature of society, unfortunately we don't see a lot of that necessarily reflected within leadership. So it was really great in the 2025 elections earlier this year, Parliament becoming more diverse than ever. But still.

Proportionately, we don't see necessarily that multiculturalism, that rich cultural, linguistic, and religious diversity of Australia within positions of leadership. I think for a lot of migrant communities, it often is the sense that you work hard, you keep your head down, and often it's about trying to do what you can within the parameters of existing systemic biases in particular. So there's really great research that's been done in APS around some of these difficulties for people who come from Asian backgrounds, for example, being promoted into SES in government. And even if you are born in Australia, speak English as a first language, still those realities of discrimination might exist where based on your name or based on the fact that you do have visibly non-Anglo appearance, that might actually might act as a deterrent or as a barrier for you to be able to get a leadership position.

So for me, when it comes to bridging these intergenerational divides, having people who can act as your genuine cheerleader and as someone who can advocate for you, and in particular going beyond this. I think often a very passive way of allyship where a lot of older generations might highlight the fact that they are anti-racist, they are inclusive and they do care about the perspectives of young people, but they don't necessarily do anything to actually go beyond that and actually trying to change the system. So generally listening and having those opportunities for dialogue, but even just on an interpersonal level where on a one-on-one basis is all that's so important. Because even if there's one person who can try and make your workplace experience better, that is a way to try and bridge that gap. And realize that you might have these biases or might have these perceptions that you didn't think were wrong or outdated, but actually that because you've had the time to listen to someone who is younger and from a younger generation, it's able to overcome those issues, but in a non-threatening way because you're not being outed, you're not being necessarily scrutinized for those views, but it's safe space to able to share those ideas as well.

Sally Bulkeley

Thank you, Afeeya. There's an element of empathy involved in that. And, Victoria, do you have anything further to add?

Victoria Cooper

Yeah, definitely. When you were talking, it just brought up Robert Putnam's bowling alone, straight away. This idea that we're running out of third places where this kind of intergenerational connection happens and that dialogue is so important. It is so much harder to disagree with someone to their face. It is so much harder to accuse them of saying, or being a boomer, to say, okay, boomer, or to be a disengaged, disinterested tech focused gen Z. That kind of stereotyping and caricaturing of difference becomes much, much harder when you're faced with it and you have something in common. That is maybe that third place that is maybe a school community or a neighbourhood or a community garden, those kind of third places where people can get together and learn from one another's experiences. And I remember a piece of advice I've had about kind of navigating these intergenerational differences is actually viewing them as a cultural difference. Kind of recognizing that older generations, my parents' generation, their parents' generation grew up in a completely different cultural circumstance than I did. They grew up with different influences, different TV shows, different pop icons, different ways of speaking.

And I think that kind of way of navigating cultural difference in other senses of difference can apply really nicely with generational difference and can possibly make us more empathetic and tolerant and maybe slower to judge.

Sally Bulkeley

So it sounds like the key here is some listening skills available across Australians.

 

Victoria Cooper

Yeah, listening and openness. think openness is so important. You need to listen and be willing to have your mind changed and also to be, and I struggle with this a lot, but to not necessarily be complacent, to be able to have conversations that make you a bit uncomfortable, to be vulnerable, to share openly. I think all of those things are really important life skills and definitely something that we can learn from each other.

Sally Bulkeley

Well, something that we can definitely learn from each other at the moment is a common security arm, which is financial security. And I think regardless of what generation you're in, you are experiencing and being impacted upon cost of living crisis, housing affordability, some more than others. Victoria, I'd be very keen to hear from you when it comes to financial security. How sustainable is Australia's current intergenerational economic model? What role do you think housing affordability, wage stagnation, student debt, like what does that play in shaping future security?

Victoria Cooper

I mean, I can answer this succinctly in saying that it doesn't look good. I think this is one area where younger generations are really feeling the pinch and really feeling that unfairness that I talked about before. We know that home ownership is down for those between 30 to 35, down from the 2000s. And I actually have some statistics that might be interesting. So the Grattan Institute crunched some of these numbers. And in the early 1990s, it took about six years to save a 20 % deposit for a home. And now it takes more than 21 years. And whereas 57 % of 30 to 34 year olds own their own home in 2001, 50 % did so by 2021. So you can see just in 20 years, the opportunities for home ownership in particular have gone down. But we also know that these generations rising up are grappling with a higher cost of things. And I mean, an anecdote from my own personal life as I was talking to someone in their 60s. And I realised that they had rented a six bedroom house in the Sydney suburbs for the same cost as my current rental in the Melbourne suburbs, a one bedroom apartment.

And that's my lived experience. You don't need a suite of statistics for that. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that. And then at the same time, we are grappling with student debt. And it is really hard to look at that and not be angry. It's really hard to look at older generations and be like, how is it fair that you have two plus homes? How is that fair? How is it fair that I'm paying off your second mortgage? It doesn't feel good. And it does pose a challenge to resiliency. It forces us to kind of blame the people rather than blame the policies that have allowed this to happen. And that does cause social fracture.

But I think as well when we're looking at financial security, this for me is one of the best changes that's happened in this broadening of the paradigm of security in that it is bringing security concerns way more proximate to the average Australian. It is so much more about your lived experience. And I think when we're thinking about national security, we're thinking about things like, does this current generation feel prosperous? Do they feel safe? Do they feel like the government is acting in their interest? Do they trust the government, do they feel comfortable? And I think all of those things are the ultimate goal of national security. It's not to necessarily defend Australia as the concept of the state. It's to defend the citizens. It's to give them a good quality of life. It's to benefit them. And so I think when we're thinking about finances, that becomes really black and white. Do we feel that benefit? Do we feel comfortable? Do we feel anxious about the future? We can have all the bombs and rockets in the world. We can have all the ships in the water. But at the end of the day, if the citizens don't feel like they can afford groceries on the table, it doesn't matter.

And you can see this time and again in every election and especially in the US this has been playing out in a huge way is that when people feel like they can't, the economy is not performing well, it doesn't matter what other indicators are going well in the country because it's about bread and butter concerns. And that can sow grievance, it can sow distrust, and it definitely is a major part of social resiliency erosion.

Sally Bulkeley

I love the concept of that being the backbone of confidence, financial security, your own lifestyle choices, your state of living, but also productivity. Afeeya, really keen to hear your views. Do you think Australians are comfortable with the current agenda? Do you think there's more we can do for intergenerational financial security to build resilience?

Afeeya Akhand

So this is a bit of a tricky question because it also comes down to economic security, but for who in particular. And I think a good case studies during COVID, for example, where of course, a of Australians lost their jobs or weren't able to work. And yeah, there is a social safety net. It might not be very good, but there is Centrelink, for example, available. You can get job seeker payments, for example. But in particular, the rhetoric I remember really sticking to me was when Scott Morrison at the time said that if you're an international student, you should go home.

And international students obviously contribute such a massive amount to Australian society through student fees, through working part-time as well, and in some cases paying up to three times compared to an Australian student when it comes to enrolling in a university. And then suddenly to have that rhetoric to be like, you're not valued anymore we need you go back to your home country because we can't support you was quite interesting to see that. And I think also as well when it comes to economic security in Australia, I think the older I get, it's also appreciating that we do have the infrastructure here, but we do need to develop further in order to improve that security for society more broadly. In particular, I have family who live in Bangladesh and some of them are quite wealthy, some of them are not very wealthy. So I've seen in other countries in particular where there is a lack of that social safety net and in particular, migrant communities have to send money back home and through remittances like trying to help relatives back home in particular.

So when it comes to this concept of economic security, definitely 100 % agree as a young person that yes, HECS debt, rising costs of living and these concerns around being a young person in this country and feeling like it is getting harder. Because unlike the previous generations who could go to university for free, buy a house relatively cheap in Sydney or Melbourne or a big city, these dreams and aspirations are becoming so much more difficult in Australia. But also as well, I think there's also warning sign overseas of making sure that we aren't influenced by how some other countries in particular might be adopting these more protectionist policies, right?

Because it seems to be then that rhetoric around how do we protect our sovereign borders and how do we take more of this internal look when it comes to security. Whether it's through tariffs, whether it's through reducing dependence on migration or migrant workers, for example, but also seeing that there is a healthy balance to be achieved where you can still help citizens domestically, but then also engage more broadly within the global trade system and still take. an approach where you are improving supply chain resilience by engaging more internationally as well. So when it comes to economic security aspect, definitely having that connection to national security as well and seeing how these trends domestically are influenced internationally, but ensuring that we are helping to build that literacy around what we can do as Australians when it comes to combating these issues. And at the end of day. Realizing that we do have a robust democracy here and that we should be lobbying, we should be advocating and trying to open the door to engage with politicians on these issues as well.

Sally Bulkeley

Thank you, Afeeya. Now, we couldn't do an intergenerational security podcast without talking about climate risk. And Victoria, I'd be very keen to hear how central you think climate security is to the younger generation's worldview. I think for us, we see a lot of young advocacy as part of climate risk. We even saw 20 years ago, younger generation advocating for climate risk. How do climate-related risks, disasters, resource scarcity, displacement? How is this all contributing to intergenerational security?

 

 

Victoria Cooper

Yeah, I think if I went back to how I tried to define intergenerational security at the beginning and thinking about how future focused it is, I think climate is one of those things that feels particularly anxiety inducing because it feels so beyond the realm of legislation. We can't legislate the planet to stop getting warmer. That's just not how it works. We can't tell the planet to stop sending storms. It's not going to happen. So it does feel harder to contain and harder to control and it is more anxiety inducing.

And I think when we look at these younger generations and how we hear the predictions, know, when I was growing up, you'd hear predictions of, by 2030, there's going to be heaps of water scarcity. By 2050, there's going to be huge amounts of climate migration. And we're thinking, okay, well, that's within my lifetime. At that point, I won't even be retired. You know, it's that kind of feeling about thinking, okay, well, if we're talking about water scarcity and if we're talking about crop failure and if we're talking about rising cost of home insurance, all of those sort of things, you're thinking, okay, well, that's happening in my lifetime.

And then you're looking at the proximate age of politicians who might not be dealing with the same things in your lifetime. And that becomes a kind of question, especially for younger generations of, you taking this seriously? Are you thinking about my future? Or are you just thinking about the, let's say 30 years you have left? So it really does put the onus on politicians, on policymakers, on decision makers to be thinking further in the future. And so that's that future focus part of intergenerational security that climate in particular hits that nail on the head.

But I think if we think about, and I kind of described cultural difference before and the different influences that create our understanding of security as we grow up, we're thinking about, let's say, my parents' generation, what framed their idea of security? Things like nuclear non-proliferation, things like the Cold War. Then we have millennials and the influences is a lot of 9-11. It's global terrorism, it's countering violent extremism. You have this generation coming up now, Generation Alpha, Generation Z, who grew up in the pandemic, but they also grew up in Australia's context in the Black Summer bushfires.

in increasing drought, in heat waves. This is something that feels incredibly proximate. And I think as well considering Australia's geography, it's also something that we recognise considering that 22 out of our 26 nearest neighbours are developing countries. This is going to be something that we are dealing with because our region is dealing with it. And you can see that already considering Australia's approach to Pacific integration, looking at the Falepili Union, looking at Australia's approach to other Pacific Island countries.

 

that this is something that isn't going to only expand Australia's fortunes, but also the fortunes of our near region and the stability and prosperity that we seek in the Indo-Pacific region. And so this isn't just about climate, it's also about migration, it's also about our relationships with neighbours. And it is within our lifetime and it's scary because we don't know what's going to happen. We don't know what's going to happen. And that's really anxiety inducing. And it does make it front of mind when we're thinking about security.

Sally Bulkeley

I think for all of us national security practitioners out there, we'll echo out to the public, climate risk is a threat multiplier. But no one quite knows what threat multiplier is. And I think you just beautifully define that for us in terms of the different emerging vulnerabilities that are associated with climate risk. Afeeya, how do we simplify climate risk advocacy so that we can demonstrate it as a chief intergenerational security concern?

I love the definition that Victoria just provided, but how do we then take that out to the Australian public?

Afeeya Akhand

So this is where climate communication, science communications more broadly is so important because how do you translate sometimes these quite abstract concepts beyond the science, beyond the quite technical nature of these phenomena to what everyday Australians can understand. And as Victoria has already highlighted, we've already experienced and are currently in the midst of the climate crisis already. This isn't a distant thing that will happen in 10, 20, 30 years and the older generation of people won't encounter, but it's already happening around us.

And I think beyond the sort of disaster and the natural disaster and sort of that aspect of it when it comes to hazards, looking at how it impacts everyday life as well, even something like for the fact that if you live in Western Sydney, during a heat wave, it's going to be between six to 10 degrees higher in temperature during a heat wave due to the fact that the houses might be built a bit less robustly or the fact that if you're waiting for a bus in Western Sydney, that there might not be infrastructure like a shelter.

So even the interaction with poor urban planning, that if you're someone who's just living your life, you will be impacted on a day-to-day basis where you live and looking at interaction between class and socioeconomic disadvantage with climate impacts as well. The other thing as well is around food security, where we see even for example, with the ongoing war in Ukraine, we see what impact that's had when it's come to global food prices in terms of wheat, sunflower oil, and all these exports from Ukraine and Russia that are being blockaded or being restricted. So if that does then interact with climate impacts, such as whether there is fertility of land, whether the availability of land for cultivating crops is being impacted, then that's going to also have a cascading impact on food markets as well. And when coming to the Pacific, for example, looking at the fact that many Pacific Island countries are reliant on tuna fishing as one source of export as well. And even we've been able to see the fact that due to climate impacts, rising sea levels, and also the fact that oceans are warming as well.

The migration of those fish species as well, which then reduces the amount of fish available for both domestically, but then also internationally as an export. So it really is down to that communication piece and really relaying back to people's everyday lives. Because once again, we can just go from that lens of looking at the fact that climate change is something impacting people overseas or it's in terms of rising sea levels, but that's something that others will deal with.

I'm also relaying it to our everyday now and how it impacts us on a day-to-day level and also interacts with those cost of living concerns and also housing and these everyday issues that Australians care about as well. And then once again as well looking at the fact that not every Australian is going to resonate with the same messaging. So looking at the fact that if you are from a particular cultural linguistic community, seeing then how you can link it back to your own community, especially how young people can play a role in those cultural communities when it comes to the fact that, it's not necessarily just about translating messaging directly into community languages, but seeing what is it that multicultural communities are interested in. In particular, a lot of people migrate because they want a better quality of life or fresh air, or they want cheaper food. They want these things that they might not have in their home country. linking it to the fact that, well, these impacts are also happening in Australia. So using solar panels, using renewable energy, buying an EV. These are ways to try and ensure that you have that quality of life that you wanted and are able to ensure that your future generations and your children are able to live in the country that you wanted like when you first migrated.

Victoria Cooper

I think some of the best science communication I've heard around climate change, if you ever want to appeal to a younger audience, is that the cost of beer, chocolate and coffee are going to become inexplicably expensive. In the years to come, they're going to become luxury items. That, to me, is very effective climate change risk messaging.

Sally Bulkley

That's very interesting because I think if they become luxury goods as opposed to survival goods, which I think a majority of us as a population tend to use on a day-to-day basis, I think that in its own right is a very sobering outlook. We're coming to the end of our podcast, which is a real shame. I think while we've examined a lot of sobering themes as part of our intergenerational security,

 

I think there's been glimmers of optimism as well that we've been challenging today as part of our conversation. And it'd be really nice to be able to hear from both of you. And Afeeya we might start with you first. What gives you hope for the next generation? I think we've talked a lot about resilience. We've talked about connectedness, social licence, about defining and educating Australia's society in ways that unite them together. mean, to me, they're really uplifting concepts that make me feel good about the future, but I'd love to hear from both you and Victoria.

Afeeya Akhand

Yeah, no, I love this uplifting note to end the podcast because we don't want it to be doom and gloom and every young person listening that we're screwed when it comes to the future of our country. What gives me hope is that a lot of young Australians are very educated, especially being in a place like Canberra surrounded by university students who very interested in national security. So I had the privilege to participate in the NSC WINSPIRE program as a mentor and to be surrounded by young ANU students, both women and culturally linguistically diverse students.

who already seem to really have things together and seem a lot more ahead of what I was when I was an ANU student when it comes to their understanding of security or their interest in this topic. So I think first and foremost, the fact that we have so many young vibrant people who have an interest in this field, or even if they're not necessarily interested yet, they have the skillset that we are looking for within this field to help improve our decision making. But also the other thing as well is the fact that we are an incredibly diverse and multicultural country.

but the fact that we should be going beyond this rhetoric of diversity, but ensuring that we have that inclusion within decision making. So as someone in my 20s going through my career, I'm very hopeful that in the coming decades, we will see this diversity filter through into leadership, especially national security. Now in government, have a cultural linguistic diversity target in leadership, which is a great way to confront existing targets around indigenous and female representation at leadership. So through these sorts of systemic targets and changes that occurring within government and within leadership as well. I see that we will see this diversity filter up into leadership and ensuring that we do have that diversity of a strain society reflected within policy making so that by the time I retire, I'm very confident that we will achieve a society that does reflect the broader population that we seek to serve.

Sally Bulkeley

Thank Afeeya, Victoria.

 

Victoria Cooper

Yeah, I think I'm trying to pull together some different threads from our discussion. But I think something that really stands out to me is we have talked a lot about resilience. And I think something that gives me hope about Australia in particular is that something that breeds resilience is having really strong institutions. And I think Australia's electoral system is something that really safeguards our democracy in that it's compulsory voting. have a independent AEC. All of those things really hold us in good stead.

That I know that it's not only up to our institutions, it's also up to human behaviour. And I think what Afeeya's been talking about, about having this multiculturalism and having better cultural competency and having better diversity and having a greater acceptance for a diversity of viewpoints, a diversity of lived experience, and that kind of acceptance and tolerance, I think if this generation can continue as it has been, kind of being open and receptive to difference and can continue being tolerant.

That in combination with these good institutions is going to hold us in really good stead. I think if this next generation can continue to be open and receptive and to, as we've been talking about, to petition, to contribute to our democratic processes, to be actively engaged, to be civic participants, I think all of those things are going to really hold us well as we go into a very uncertain future, as we like to say.

Sally Bulkeley

Victoria, Afeeya, thank you. They are wonderful concluding insights for us all to lift ourselves on a bit of a high for the end of the year episode. Thank you for being here today. I think this will be the first of a few conversations that we'll have, particularly as we release our community consultations report in late March at the Securing Our Future Ready and Resilience Conference, 24th and 25th of March, where we'll make sense from a quantitative and qualitative perspective, different demographics and perceptions of national security. We would love to have you on afterwards to look at those facts and figures and again, look at intergenerational security from a lens of what Australian society has told us to. Thank you very much for joining me today.

Afeeya Akhand, Victoria Cooper

Thank you.

National Security Podcast

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