Transcript

How does Finland view strategic linkages between the Euro-Atlantic and Indo-Pacific regions? 

What is the Finnish model of ‘Comprehensive Security’, and how does it work in practice? 

How does Finland communicate openly with the public about national security risks without fuelling alarm or polarisation? 

What lessons can Australia learn from Finland's societal-led approach to preparedness? 

In this episode, Pasi Rajala joins Rory Medcalf to discuss the evolving geopolitical landscape, the importance of international cooperation among democracies, and Finland's unique approach to security and resilience. 

(This transcript is AI-generated and may contain inaccuracies.)

Pasi Rajala

Russia and its proxies and its ally or partner China, they want to change the world order to something more to their liking. And obviously, as principled supporters of the UN Charter and international law, countries like Australia and Finland, we have to take a stand and fight back.

National Security Podcast

You're listening to the National Security Podcast, the show that brings you expert analysis, insights and opinion on the national security challenges facing Australia and the Indo-Pacific produced by the ANU National Security College.

Rory Medcalf

Welcome to the National Security Podcast. I'm Rory Medcalf, Head of the National Security College at the Australian National University. We're recording this conversation on the traditional lands of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people and I pay respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. It’s a real privilege this week to be joined on the podcast by a distinguished visitor who’s travelled all the way from Finland. You’ve travelled here to Australia to talk about some very serious security and geopolitical issues. It's a real pleasure to welcome to the studio Pasi Rajala, the State Secretary to Finland's Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister of Defence. Welcome.

Pasi Rajala

Thank you, Professor Rory. If I may, it's an honour to be on the podcast.

Rory Medcalf

So, so many questions I think that our listeners will have in their minds as to why a distinguished policy visitor, political visitor from Finland is joining our security conversation here in Australia. It's only in recent years I think that the strategic imperatives and directions of two geographically very distant democracies, Australia and Finland, have seemed to converge. In recent months and years, there's been a lot of conversation about what we can learn from one another in this very confronting strategic environment. So perhaps I could begin by inviting you to share with us, why are you here in Australia? And we're recording this early September, 2025. What's the purpose of your visit?

Pasi Rajala

Well, thank you for that. Well, I come as a close friend of Australia from afar. As you pointed out, we're going through a very turbulent period in global international affairs. And this is a time when like-minded democracies need to come together and find ways to stick together and stand up for international norms, democracy, human rights in a more coordinated and even assertive way. And that's why we need to build a tighter relationship with nations like Australia.

Rory Medcalf

And we might come back to some of that in very practical terms a bit later in the conversation because it's one thing, I guess, to have trusted dialogue among like-minded friends and democracies, but it's another thing to determine how we can actually marshal resources to work together. But let's come back to that in a moment. Another question I think that some of our listeners will have is specifically about your role, your title, your job description, which is very unusual in the world of strategic policy - State Secretary to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister of Defence. Is that a normal thing in Finland? What's the background?

Pasi Rajala

It's not a normal thing, I think it's the first time somebody holds this double-hatted role. Obviously I'm a political appointee, I'm a political deputy to both ministers appointed by the cabinet and prime minister at of the day. I think the idea is to bring these two departments closer. Obviously they are very interlinked in their work and they work closely together. But I think the idea with this position was to bring them even closer together, and well, time will tell how successful I am in that.

Rory Medcalf

And how's it going so far and is it a sign of the times in a way that portfolios should be communicating across traditional boundaries?

Pasi Rajala

Indeed, indeed. Particularly in Finland, our resources are limited, so we need to improve on our cross-department cooperation. I mean the departments are working nicely together there's no major issue. But still, I think it's a nice role. I can attend ministerial meetings with foreign ministers and ministerial meetings with defence ministers, and the synergies are evident. They're very clear.

Rory Medcalf

In your own background, you don't come at this from a very traditional path as a civil servant who's followed that one track very specifically throughout your career. You bring a pretty diverse background.

Pasi Rajala

Yeah, indeed. Again, I'm a political appointee. I'm not from the Foreign Service, but I have served in the United Nations for some years. I have served at the Embassy of Finland in Washington, D.C. So I have the public service experience, but then I have some private sector experience as well, also serving as a political advisor to our prime minister and minister for trade.

Rory Medcalf

And interestingly, and this might come up in our conversation later of course, like so many Finns, you've done your national military service as well.

Pasi Rajala

Indeed. And that's what we Finns take pride in. We have a mandatory conscription service only for male citizens. People have the option of serving the country in more civilian roles. But many of us, the majority of us do opt for the military service. And it's a very unique thing, but it's a very powerful also cost effective way of managing your defence. We can easily quickly mobilize 280,000 soldiers to arms.

Rory Medcalf

Out of a population of...

Pasi Rajala

5.5 million. And we have a trained military reserve of 900,000 soldiers who can bear arms. So that's something.

Rory Medcalf

We'll come back to the model of Finnish comprehensive security a bit later, but let's take a look at the state of the world as you see it from Helsinki. What are the risks and challenges on your mind?

Pasi Rajala

Well, obviously much of my time and my minister's time is spent on helping Ukraine in their rightful self-defence. Another big fight right now is the Middle East, which has many ramifications. But on Ukraine, obviously it's primarily about Ukraine, helping Ukraine defend herself, fight for their liberty. But it's also... there's a bigger issue behind it. Russia and its proxies and its ally or partner China, they want to change the world order to something more to their liking. And obviously, as principled supporters of the UN Charter and international law, countries like Australia and Finland, we have to take a stand and fight back.

Rory Medcalf

So reading of course, the situation in Ukraine now, early September, and of course things change -there's so much turbulence in global geopolitics at the moment - but what assessment can you share publicly with how you see that challenge evolving, the conflict developing, the prospects for some kind of just peace?

Pasi Rajala

Well, the first thing that gives us hope is the incredible resilience of the Ukrainian people and the way they have been able to fight the Russians back for over three years now. It is remarkable. In the front lines, the Russians, they are able to grind on very slowly, but they don't have the manpower to make any strategic advances. So this is one interesting point. Putin's narrative is that their win and success, military success in Ukraine, is inevitable. But our intelligence and all the data that we have speaks to the contrary. The Ukrainians are holding the line and Russia cannot make any major advances. Obviously now we have to focus on advancing the peace talks. Everyone wants peace. Ukraine wants peace. Europe wants peace. Australia wants peace. The United States wants peace. The only missing part is that Putin is not prepared for sincere peace talks.

Rory Medcalf

Widening the strategic aperture a little, well quite a lot actually, and looking at the connection with the rest of the world, the connection with the Indo-Pacific region in particular. There's been a lot of analysis in recent years about the linkages between the theatres of the Euro-Atlantic and the Indo-Pacific. The involvement, for example, of North Korean forces in the conflict in Ukraine, the relationship between China and Russia, the question of ensuring a stable a peaceful order in this region, the Indo-Pacific where Australia is situated, and how that connects with Europe's interests. What, again, is a Finnish perspective on that global picture?

Pasi Rajala

Well, we see these two theatres, if you will, very much connected through the Chinese-Russian partnership. Obviously, Russia would not be able to sustain their military offensive without support from China; support in terms of critical technology, but also financing for the Russian war chest. And the reason China is doing that is obviously they have the shared goal to change the world order no less. So Russia is doing China's work in many ways, so China wants to keep the war going. Obviously China is also taking careful notes about the military aspects of the war, learning the lessons, how the Russian military is performing and how the Ukrainians are performing. And finally, the key point is if Ukraine were to fall, which I don't believe will happen, that would send a strong signal for China that there are other… that Taiwan would be up for grabs.

Rory Medcalf

At the time of recording this, we've just had the spectacle of the parade in Beijing : the, in my opinion, reinvention of history in the way that the defeat of Imperial Japan was brought about in the Second World War and a very clear message of Chinese power, a clear message of China appearing to stand shoulder to shoulder with Russia, with North Korea as well in a different vision of world order and a rather extraordinary display of military firepower as well. Looking below the surface of that and taking a slightly longer view of what this means for world order, including for the liberal democracies, the countries that have and want accountable government, transparent government for their people, what's your response? What's your perception?

Pasi Rajala

No, it's obviously worrying to see these three leaders huddling together and their bromance, if you will. Obviously, I mean, we know that the Chinese military buildup is serious - is to be taken seriously. And even the Russian military complex, it's producing material for the war in a very impressive manner. So it's a serious force. But on the other hand, so is our force. I mean, as you know, NATO has agreed to major hiking and defence spending and we will build up the European defences. I mean, obviously this is a bit of an arms race, which is very unfortunate, we should be focusing on fighting climate change. But this is the way of the world and we have to accept it. But the Europeans are going to bear their burden in our collective defence. We're really doing it, not only Finland, but other nations as well.

Rory Medcalf

I also want to come back to, I guess, the question of Finland as a model for European resilience. But the last big piece of the great power puzzle I'm going to mention before perhaps we turn to looking a bit more at Finnish security - Finnish comprehensive security - is of course the question about the United States in the world and the impact of the second Trump administration on the way that American allies and partners are looking to their security. It’s only a few years ago that Finland and Sweden understandably in my view joined NATO as a response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. But there is a question now, there is an uncertainty in many of our countries about what kind of ally is the United States under Trump going to be? Interested in your views on the American dimension.

Pasi Rajala

Well obviously, the United States, even before Finland joined NATO, the United States is our key defence ally for Finland. Luckily, we're in a good position right now. We have very good access to the Trump administration. Our President Stubb is personally in touch with President Trump all the time.

Rory Medcalf

Not just because he's a good golfer.

Pasi Rajala

That's where their relationship started.

But obviously Finland was in Trump's good books already before that. have systematically worked on that. So we have good view to the thinking - there's a lot of noise obviously and there is lots of uncertainty. But luckily if you cut through all the noise and you see clearly to the fundaments of US foreign policy and commitment to Europe and Indo-Pacific, the fundaments still hold and still remain. So I'm not that concerned about that.

Rory Medcalf

That's quite a striking observation that I think Australian listeners will be interested to process because there is a lot of noise, there's a lot of uncertainty and I think we're all taking a very cold look at the moment at our alliance interests, how to make them work pragmatically for us without panic.

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Rory Medcalf

But let's turn to national responses to security. There is a lot of interest in this country about the Nordic model of resilience. A lot of that's about Finland. I think there's also some interest in Sweden, some interest also in what some of the other smaller countries of Northern Europe are doing to really bring together all of their resources and capabilities within a democratic framework to protect their interests. I'll shamelessly mention a paper that the National Security College published earlier this year – “North Star: Why Australia Should Look to Finland on Resilience and Preparedness” - which is our contribution to that conversation in Australia, recognising that Finland has a particular history and a particular model politically, socially, culturally that has achieved, I think, quite an extraordinary level of national preparedness. And I know that you're not here on a mission to proselytise the Finnish way to Australia. But having said all of that, there is growing interest in this country in national preparedness, preparedness for a whole range of risks and threats, not just at the military level. Can you share a few observations on the Finnish comprehensive security model, how it's evolved, where it's going, strengths, challenges?

Pasi Rajala

Sure, and again, I mean, I'm not here to preach to the Australians how they should run their business, but I can share some experiences. First of all, let me point out that Finland is by a UN survey the happiest nation on Earth six or seven years running. And one might ask how is it possible living next to a very aggressive Russia? The answer is that instead of people living with fearful anxiety or something bad happening, they are living under determined preparedness. People trust in our system's ability to absorb and respond to all kinds of threats and aggressions. And it's based on many, many things and decades of work. It doesn't happen overnight. Again, the national military conscription is one key element of that.

Then we have what we call national defence courses, which brings together leaders from government, politics, and the business community to look at their respective roles in how Finland can prepare for all eventualities - not only military or anything like that, but also natural disasters or pandemics, or whatnot. So this is a very effective instrument where the business community also sees their role. You might ask what's in it for the business community to contribute to national security. Well, they also need a stable business environment. They also need a secure supply of goods for their own businesses. So they see the value of it. And of course, then we have specific agencies. I want to mention the National Emergency Supply Agency, which is tasked with making sure that we have critical supplies of critical goods that we need to run the society and deliver the public services that we need.

Rory Medcalf

The communication with the public about this, the national conversation that undergirds this - because of course, although Finland has a relatively homogenous society culturally, it's a smaller population than Australia although it is a very large geography for a small European country, it's very dispersed - what's the national conversation that keeps this model alive and that keeps some kind of public consent and buy-in and comfort level with this degree of security? Because again this is something that is quite unfamiliar in the Australian experience where I guess there tended to be a fair bit of silence about a lot of national security issues.

Pasi Rajala

Well, yeah, obviously, mean, Finland is a smaller population, so it's more manageable in that sense. Then again, the challenge is to how to keep the younger generations engaged. We also have a growing immigrant population, how to keep them engaged. Again, I refer to the conscription service, that's one key element in that. And then there is public communication about the various threats, be they cyber or anything like that. We try to make them public in a way that is just informative. We also don't want to scare the people. There's no need to raise any alarm, but just matter of fact, stating what is happening and how we are managing and how we're responding to things. So communication is a very critical element in that.

Rory Medcalf

And so that calling out of risks, I mean, there have been incidents, for example in recent years, of the cutting of cables in the Baltic or of foreign interference operations or, of course, the noise and the threats that come from Russia. Is that handled in a way that is political or depoliticized? How do you manage that without raising anxiety levels unduly and without causing, if you like, great political difference in your democracy.

Pasi Rajala

Yeah, that's an excellent question. Obviously, it's a fine balance and we do sometimes struggle with it. The quick answer is that we try to do these things on a sort of technical civil service level - all the respective authorities communicating for their particular part. And in our system, we're always very careful that it's the responsible authority who's managing the situation. And many times, of course, you need to bring different departments and different services together. But they're always responsible also for the communications, and we - the political level - we take a step back. Of course, there will be times when we need the prime minister's voice or even the president's voice. But the first instance is the technical civil service level who manages the communication.

Rory Medcalf

And looking at the other accomplishments that Finland has some fame for. You've mentioned the happiness index. We didn't talk about Eurovision, but that's fine. We can leave that out of this conversation. But you've talked about the happiness index. Finland and other Nordic societies are looked at sometimes by countries like Australia as models in terms of education or some areas of social services and welfare and so forth. To what extent is national security and defence seen as very distinct from those areas of government service and to what extent do you think there's a kind of continuum where they're all recognised as a joined up concerted effort to support national resilience? Is it a trade-off between, for example, education and security?

Pasi Rajala

Well, no, no, it's not a trade-off. I'll give you one example. I mean, obviously now we need to be very conscious of information operations and foreign influencing of our opinions and foreign attempts to drive wedges between different groups of our citizens. And one key element is that we have media literacy in our elementary school curriculum and all the way through higher levels of education. That's really critical that the youth, they understand what is a reliable news source and what is not. So in that sense, it's integrated in the education system. But then again, Finland is a free democracy with various voices. So it's not like government is trying to manipulate the thinking of the youth. Everybody can make up their own mind.

Rory Medcalf

Before we wrap up, I want to turn back to this region, back to Australia, because you're here. I think you're travelling elsewhere in the region as well on this visit. And we have had, I'm glad to say, increased contact diplomatically and strategic dialogue over the years. We had a Finnish prime ministerial visit. We've had, I think, presidential visits. We've had a number of visits that once would have not registered so much on the Australian diplomatic agenda. But in this new geostrategic environment we are looking for friends, sort of irrespective of geography. Could I ask without disclosing too many national secrets, what's your agenda here in Australia? What kinds of issues are you exploring in your contact with the Australian government? What do you see as a kind of a program of work ahead for our two countries?

Pasi Rajala

Well, part of my mission here this time is to identify the practicalities of our cooperation. We have outlined in our government policy platform that Australia is one of our key partners going forward, given the turbulence in the world and the retreat of democracy and the need to uphold international norms. So we are close friends despite the geographic distance and we need to work together. Obviously the fora include the United Nations, obviously NATO is one where you are a partner, a critical partner. And then there are some bilateral avenues. We can look at cooperation and we're both investing in defence. So we want to make sure that the money is well spent and we can value for the money. So maybe there are joint defence capability programs that we could explore. Critical minerals is one area where both of our countries have lots of expertise and resources. Maybe that's one area where we can pool our resources. And then in terms of broader trade, Finland being part of the European Union, and we are free traders by nature. We are pushing for the Australia-European Union free trade agreement on our end.

Rory Medcalf

So it's a reasonably ambitious agenda and how do you see this evolving? What's the time frame?

Pasi Rajala

Well, I mean, I don't have any practicalities, but I can tell you that the response has been very positive. I think there has been similar thinking done here in Australia as in Finland. And so my visit and other visits that we have had and will have, they've been very well received. And I think there's now very strong joint commitment to move forward on these issues. The next step is to transform it into more actionable agenda.

Rory Medcalf

Thank you so much for joining us today. I'll make a few points to wrap up the conversation and I think this is one of a number of conversations we're having with friends from the Nordic region, Northern Europe, the Baltic and so forth on the convergence of interests in this uncertain new world. I think your emphasis on the relationship of education to security is certainly music to our ears here at the National Security College. The question of how do small and middle-sized liberal democracies, if I can say that, look to creatively join forces across geography given the great power politics of this era, but also questions about the national conversation, national preparedness. And this is a point at which I'd mention as well as the work we're doing on studying Finnish resilience here at the National Security College: our consultations with the Australian community which are well advanced, well underway now.

We're trying to get a clearer sense of not just the diversity of views in the Australian community but also the convergence of views on issues like preparedness and resilience. So our conversation today I think has reinforced a lot of that good and useful work. Thank you again for visiting us here at the National Security College. Wishing you well in your challenging, I think, portfolio responsibilities of foreign affairs and defence and of course wishing you, Finland and all our friends in Europe, well with the challenges of finding a just peace to the Ukraine conflict. So, with that rather lengthy summing up from me, I really want to thank you, Pasi Rajala, State Secretary to Finland's Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister of Defence. T hank you for joining us on the National Security Podcast.

Pasi Rajala

Thank you for having me, it's been an honour. Thank you.

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